At least 26 people killed in shooting at Texas church

[Aldebaran]

And I have never said anyplace in this thread that Americans shouldn't be allowed to have guns.

But the implication has been that we shouldn't be allowed to own anything other than what was there when the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

But you are the one who keeps posting quotes by the founding fathers, and there is nothing indicating that any of them ever thought that automatic weapons would ever exist. They were think of single shot weapons.

 

[Archivist]

But the implication has been that we shouldn't be allowed to own anything other than what was there when the founding fathers wrote the constitution.

I certainly never said that.

 

[Aldebaran]

I certainly never said that.

See my edit in my last post.

 

[Archivist]

See my edit in my last post.

So? They were thinking of single shot weapons. That does not mean that people today should be limited to Kentucky rifles, muskets and flintlocks.

 

[Aldebaran]

So? They were thinking of single shot weapons. That does not mean that people today should be limited to Kentucky rifles, muskets and flintlocks.

Then what do you think they should be limited to? Keep in mind that we're not talking about hunting as the reason for the Second Amendment. A single shot may or may not be enough against an animal you want for dinner. When it comes to defense, more is needed--especially when the person you're defending against will most likely have more than a single shot.

 

[Followers4christ]

But the founders were not thinking about the public engaging in guerrilla warfare against the government at the time the Constitution was drafted. We only need to look at the founding documents to understand that.

As Thomas Jefferson said (full quote below) "rulers are not warned from time to time." To effectively warn someone and to be able to give effective resistance one must be effectively armed.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
– Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
– Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
-Patrick Henry, Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution

“f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.”
– Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
– Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

“The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American … the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”
-Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788

“(C)onceived it to be the privilege of every citizen, and one of his most essential rights, to bear arms, and to resist every attack upon his liberty or property, by whomsoever made. The particular States, like private citizens, have a right to be armed, and to defend by force of arms, their rights, when invaded.”
-Roger Sherman, Debates on 1790 Militia Act

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
– Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

 

[Waterwerx]

It seemed to work in the middle east recently.

Sure, if body count is the only metric you're using.

 

[Followers4christ]

But there is nothing in the Constitution giving anyone the right to own fully automatic weapons.

"....the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The word "infringe" means :

"Act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on."

infringe | Definition of infringe in English by Oxford Dictionaries

So to limit the types of guns someone can have is infringing on our rights to bear arms. From the founders the "arms" were there to protect ourselves from "rulers" of both our own government and from foreign Invaders.

Simply put, federal government may not constitutionally act in any way that limits the right to keep and bear arms including automatic ones.

 

[Aldebaran]

Sure, if body count is the only metric you're using.

Sometimes force is the only thing that will overthrow a regime. It's not always possible to "talk them out of power".

 

[Waterwerx]

Sometimes force is the only thing that will overthrow a regime. It's not always possible to "talk them out of power".

But you have to ask the question, why did things reach that point? Its not like the US is one of those smaller countries where someone can just walk in and take over. Our Constitution and Laws were set up to prevent that sort of thing. Problem is not enough people take much interest and don't care until things start to negatively affect them.

 

[Archivist]

As Thomas Jefferson said (full quote below) "rulers are not warned from time to time." To effectively warn someone and to be able to give effective resistance one must be effectively armed.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.”
– Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…. The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
– Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
-Patrick Henry, Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution

“f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.”
– Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
– Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789

“The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American … the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”
-Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788

“(C)onceived it to be the privilege of every citizen, and one of his most essential rights, to bear arms, and to resist every attack upon his liberty or property, by whomsoever made. The particular States, like private citizens, have a right to be armed, and to defend by force of arms, their rights, when invaded.”
-Roger Sherman, Debates on 1790 Militia Act

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.”
– Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
– Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Before looking at quotes from various individuals, some of whom were not among the founding fathers, lets look at what the Constitution and the preceding frame of government say about militias:

From Section Six of the Articles of Confederation:

“Every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage."

From Article One of the Constitution regarding the powers of Congress over the militia:

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress."

From Article Two of the Constitution:

"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States."

Where do any of the provisions discuss militias taking up arms against the United States government? If that was the intent it would be clearly expressed in our founding documents. It is not.

 

[Archivist]

"....the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The word "infringe" means :

"Act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on."

infringe | Definition of infringe in English by Oxford Dictionaries

So to limit the types of guns someone can have is infringing on our rights to bear arms. From the founders the "arms" were there to protect ourselves from "rulers" of both our own government and from foreign Invaders.

Simply put, federal government may not constitutionally act in any way that limits the right to keep and bear arms including automatic ones.

So you have the right to keep a 16" battleship gun and ammo in your backyard? Really?

 

[dentonz]

See post 18#. Your mistake is assuming that all dealers at gun shows are federally licensed instead of private. Most are, sure. However, you can always buy from someone- even at a gun show or on-line- privately. I'm not a federally licensed dealer, but if I want to sell my guns, I can do so, and I don't legally have to make the buyer go through a background check.

The gun shows I've been to here in Virginia don't allow private sellers unless they are selling antique firearms. You can legally sell your weapons to a private citizen, but there are laws regarding that, that each person is assumed to be aware of: can't sell to someone out of state, etc.. As far as online, you can answer a classified add online, but you still have to meet the person and make a private sell. So technically, I guess the private sale could be considered a loophole, but it is illegal for anyone to purchase a gun if the are not authorized to buy one; which is why laws and regulations do nothing to stop criminals from committing crime.

 

[dentonz]

But the founders were not thinking about the public engaging in guerrilla warfare against the government at the time the Constitution was drafted. We only need to look at the founding documents to understand that.

Just a few years prior they were engaged in just exactly that against their own government. That is exactly the reason the 2nd amendment was drafted to put a restraint on the government so that it couldn't take away the right of a free person to protect themselves; especially from a tyrannical government.

 

[Aldebaran]

But you have to ask the question, why did things reach that point? Its not like the US is one of those smaller countries where someone can just walk in and take over. Our Constitution and Laws were set up to prevent that sort of thing. Problem is not enough people take much interest and don't care until things start to negatively affect them.

True. It's like the frog in the pot of boiling water analogy. Sometimes the frog notices he's about to die and jumps out just in time.

 

[Aldebaran]

So you have the right to keep a 16" battleship gun and ammo in your backyard? Really?

You might be surprised to know that there are people who even own tanks and other retired surplus military equipment. Some people own old P-51 Mustangs and other warplanes too.

 

[Archivist]

Just a few years prior they were engaged in just exactly that against their own government. That is exactly the reason the 2nd amendment was drafted to put a restraint on the government so that it couldn't take away the right of a free person to protect themselves; especially from a tyrannical government.

And in that war they raised an army, they did not rely on militia. Washington actually had very little good to say about the militia.

And still waiting for anyone to answer my question—where does the Cobstitution say that the purpose of the militia is to take on the US government?

 

[Archivist]

You might be surprised to know that there are people who even own tanks and other retired surplus military equipment. Some people own old P-51 Mustangs and other warplanes too.

That doesn’t answer my question.

 

[Aldebaran]

That doesn’t answer my question.

Then the answer to your question, as worded, is "Yes, and many other things".

 

[Archivist]

Then the answer to your question, as worded, is "Yes, and many other things".

You are entitled to your opinion, but the Cobstitution doesn’t support it.