AstraZeneca/Oxford Announce Positive results for their vaccine

[Whyayeman]

Anti-tetanus shots laced with what? People can spout any old tosh and find others simple enough to believe them. Does plain fact not get in the way of such notions? A very large proportion of the world's population will have had tetanus shots and infertility is not a problem.

But why would anybody do that? Who gains? Who pays for it? What drug could achieve this result with just one dose? I'll be interested in any answers that do not require a Bible quote.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

These things usually take person-years to make sure they are safe, i.e. (#of people receiving the vaccine) X (average time since receipt of vaccine). This will be measured in millions of person-years soon (perhaps even a month) after rollout for many of these vaccines. Currently we're at perhaps 5000 person-years after these initial trials, indicating any severe side-effects are rare indeed.

I'm pretty saddened that for many of the announcements for positive vaccine results, the first response is from antivaxxers.

Um, caution regarding a rushed vaccine that skipped animal trials does not make one at all an anti-vaxxer. Most people are indeed vaccinated with vaccines that have stood the test of time.

 

[Whyayeman]

The trials included animal trials. The difference has been that animal trials and human trials took place simultaneously. But animal trials actually have taken place.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Um, caution regarding a rushed vaccine that skipped animal trials does not make one at all an anti-vaxxer. Most people are indeed vaccinated with vaccines that have stood the test of time.

Yes, and for most people, they will have a time-tested Covid vaccine. The antivaxx sentiment I've been seeing here is "I'm going to wait X years before getting a vaccine" where X is some apparently random number between 2 and 10. Think about it - in ten years we might have up to 70 Billion person-years of safety data. It is exactly equivalent to saying "I'm not going to get this vaccine no matter how safe or effective it is" .

Let me be clear: the first people receiving the vaccine immediately after Phase III trials are complete will be assuming some extra risk - but that is because some rare side effects might be missed. But the reasonable amount of time for really risk-averse people to wait after roll-out is a few months, not years. I would gladly be first in line now to get either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.

 

[Whyayeman]

Any risk to well-being will be manifested very soon after the injections. This is how it is with antivirals.
That makes complete sense to me.

All medical interventions carry some risk. It is just a judgment, like crossing the road. You look both ways and then decide. With covid 19 the risk from infection is high. About 1% of people die; more than that in older age groups. Ninety nine to one - pretty good odds compared to the obviously tiny chance of serious side effects. I'll be in the queue with sesquiterpene. We can discuss probability.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Yes, and for most people, they will have a time-tested Covid vaccine. The antivaxx sentiment I've been seeing here is "I'm going to wait X years before getting a vaccine" where X is some apparently random number between 2 and 10. Think about it - in ten years we might have up to 70 Billion person-years of safety data. It is exactly equivalent to saying "I'm not going to get this vaccine no matter how safe or effective it is" .

Let me be clear: the first people receiving the vaccine immediately after Phase III trials are complete will be assuming some extra risk - but that is because some rare side effects might be missed. But the reasonable amount of time for really risk-averse people to wait after roll-out is a few months, not years. I would gladly be first in line now to get either the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines.

No, that isn't at all "anti-vax" either, to determine to wait until some evidence of response over time plays out. That would be delayed-vax.

Let me be clear: you do whatever you feel is best for you and your family. Others may do the same or decide differently, and that is perfectly acceptable.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

The trials included animal trials. The difference has been that animal trials and human trials took place simultaneously. But animal trials actually have taken place.

Standard clinical trials of any new medicine require scientists first test the vaccine on animals (normally mice) to determine its safety and effectiveness. Only after surviving iterative tests in animal models can a candidate medicine then be tested in human trials. This step has been dispensed with in the case of mRNA-1273.

Reports said virologists at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases INIAID) did give the experimental vaccine to lab mice. These mice showed a similar immune response to mice given an experimental vaccine for MERS-CoV, a related coronavirus, Barney Graham, director of NIAID’s vaccine research center, told STAT news. The problem, however, is standard lab mice isn't susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 as humans, which leaves open the efficacy question.

 

[sesquiterpene]

No, that isn't at all "anti-vax" either, to determine to wait until some evidence of response over time plays out. That would be delayed-vax.

We already have a lot of data about response over time, and will have even more by the time any of these vaccines are approved. You have some nebulous and irrational concerns about the safety of vaccines, and that is antivaxx.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Standard clinical trials of any new medicine require scientists first test the vaccine on animals (normally mice) to determine its safety and effectiveness. Only after surviving iterative tests in animal models can a candidate medicine then be tested in human trials. This step has been dispensed with in the case of mRNA-1273.

Why do you think this is useful? We're already at the stage in testing where animal safety testing is completely irrelevant, because we've already done safety testing in tens of thousands of people. I don't think you have any idea how safety testing is done, and are merely expressing some tenuous and irrational fear of vaccines. Did you think safety testing is done using tens of thousands of mice?

Reports said virologists at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases INIAID) did give the experimental vaccine to lab mice. These mice showed a similar immune response to mice given an experimental vaccine for MERS-CoV, a related coronavirus, Barney Graham, director of NIAID’s vaccine research center, told STAT news. The problem, however, is standard lab mice isn't susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 as humans, which leaves open the efficacy question.

What in the world is your point here? They weren't able to test the efficacy in mice, yet you seem to be worried about safety. The fact that you post such totally irrelevant nonsense underscores the fact that you don't understand how safety testing is done, and are merely expressing some tenuous and irrational fear of vaccines.

 

[sesquiterpene]

In other news, the UK government has asked it's regulatory agency (the MHRA) to review the data on the vaccine. Apparently they had asked it to review the data on the Pfizer vaccine a week earlier. I presume it is a prelude to authorization of these vaccines, but it differs from the US where it is the manufacturers asking for approval. Any ideas on why this is?
Oxford Covid vaccine: Regulator asked to assess jab

 

[Whyayeman]

Standard practice here, I think. It is certainly not a prelude to stopping its use here, or an expression of doubt about it.

I have been wondering about how the vaccines will be distributed in USA. In the UK our beloved NHS will be in charge and the shots will be free to the populace.

 

[Whyayeman]

Breaking news in UK:

The Pfizer vaccine will be begin to be used in ten about days' time, starting with high priority recipients - health workers and vulnerable people in care homes and their carers.

 

[sesquiterpene]

Breaking news in UK:

The Pfizer vaccine will be begin to be used in ten about days' time, starting with high priority recipients - health workers and vulnerable people in care homes and their carers.

Great! Do you have a link for that?

 

[Whyayeman]

It was a Guardian exclusive when I posted. The story has vanished from the website.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Why do you think this is useful? We're already at the stage in testing where animal safety testing is completely irrelevant, because we've already done safety testing in tens of thousands of people. I don't think you have any idea how safety testing is done, and are merely expressing some tenuous and irrational fear of vaccines. Did you think safety testing is done using tens of thousands of mice?

What in the world is your point here? They weren't able to test the efficacy in mice, yet you seem to be worried about safety. The fact that you post such totally irrelevant nonsense underscores the fact that you don't understand how safety testing is done, and are merely expressing some tenuous and irrational fear of vaccines.

Keep repeating your ad hominem catch phrase here. Yes, of course it must be me who misunderstands. If it comforts you to dismiss instead of engage my words, so be it. You are wrong, but no matter.

 

[sesquiterpene]

If it comforts you to dismiss instead of engage my words, so be it. You are wrong, but no matter.

Well, in the post you quoted I actually did engage your arguments. You claimed that animal testing for safety was skipped, and I pointed out that it was irrelevant because we already have a ton of safety data in people.

Then you claimed that animal testing was done, but they couldn't test for efficacy. I pointed out that we were talking about safety, not efficacy (and refrained from pointing out the obvious inconsistency with your first argument). Do you have any actual arguments here?

 

[Whyayeman]

OK, the source of the Pfizer vaccine story.

It is the lead story in the Guardian UK on-line version
'Hospitals have been told to prepare for the rollout of a coronavirus vaccine in as little as 10 days’ time, with NHS workers expected to be at the front of the queue, the Guardian has learned.'

 

[OddityCrisis]

It's been made a political disease. And there are anti-Trumpers who will put their politics ahead of public health. Just like the anti-vax crowd puts their phobias ahead of public health. Now I don't like needles but I'll take this one. I'm going to ask for a morally produced vaccine though. The Catholic hospital I would get the vaccine through had better be able to handle that.

As a 2-time Trump voter, refusing these vaxxes is, by no means, a democrat thing.

 

[Whyayeman]

The first of the vaccine doses are on their way to centres now. The priorities are already pretty clear; health and care workers will be vaccinated in the next few days.

More are on their way. Over-eighties, then over 75s, then over seventies and so on. There is at last light at the end of the tunnel. We are planning a big party round about Easter-time...

Meanwhile, our death toll has passed 60,000; much of the country is under severe restrictions. America is dealing with record increases in deaths and the disease is spreading through the population at an ever-increasing rate.

 

[OddityCrisis]

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know when and how everyone first heard about the WuFlu.

Me, 2nd week in January from Styxhexenhammer.