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Assurance?

NoahSK

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The purpose of this post isn’t to argue against Calvinism, since I for the most part agree with it. Rather, I want to ask a question that has been bothering me for a while.

Knowing that a Christian can't lose their salvation, how can we be assured of our salvation, when at any time we can decide to up and quit on Christianity? I've had a few times where I've felt like giving up. How can I be assured knowing that I might some time in the future give up?

I only want people who agree that salvation can’t be lost to answer please; I don’t want to get into theological arguments.
 
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The purpose of this post isn’t to argue against Calvinism, since I for the most part agree with it. Rather, I want to ask a question that has been bothering me for a while.

Knowing that a Christian can't lose their salvation, how can we be assured of our salvation, when at any time we can decide to up and quit on Christianity? I've had a few times where I've felt like giving up. How can I be assured knowing that I might some time in the future give up?

I only want people who agree that salvation can’t be lost to answer please; I don’t want to get into theological arguments.
If you are born again, you have the Holy Spirit in you who is keeping you in faith so that you stay with God for eternity.
 
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Blade

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"up and quit". Who does not wonder this at some point. I think about fallen angels. They can't repent. Seems they willingly walked away. They seen God.. stood by God in all His glory and power. They were created there. They walk away.. God has nothing they want. Now us.. we were born into sin. Sin is the only world we know. To those that do not choose this world and sin but want Christ (heaven). Yet..we've only seen through a very old muddy clouded glass of what is waiting, whats real.

Even then..there are millions of millions that believe and have never heard, seen felt anything of God.. still only believe. So.. what would they be "up and quitting?" walking away from God? A choice like that made surrounded by all kind of darkness and lies.

Toss this out.. I was going to quit.. I thought as I was reading if your heart convicts you.. you wont get anything from God.. I told Him I quit.. I said my heart convicts me 24/7. Do you know how He answered that? He asked me what is righteousness then asked how do you get righteousness. He show'd me what He sees.

I truly don't know if one can really truly walk way. God understand what we go through and hear in this world vs where He is.. the real realm. I have always believed its far easier to be saved.. then lost.
 
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St_Worm2

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...how can we be assured of our salvation, when at any time we can decide to up and quit on Christianity?
Hi NoahSK, ~permanently~ walking away from the Christian faith is one of the principle ways that we know that we were never in the faith from the get-go.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going made manifest that none of them belonged to us.

We have wrong "feelings" for all kinds of reasons, fortunately for us however, the Christian faith isn't based on our feelings :preach: Know, understand and fill your mind with God's word and trust it/trust Him .. e.g. Proverbs 3:5-6, instead of your feelings and/or Satan's and his demons' lies and half-truths (this will take continual effort on you part, because it's something that you will need to train yourself to do .. the good news is, it gets easier/becomes more of a natural response, with time :oldthumbsup:).

If you fail (fail to take your intrusive thoughts and/or feelings "captive" quickly enough when they come your way .. 2 Corinthians 10:5), ask Him to forgive you and He will .. e.g. 1 John 1:9, then get up and get back to your walk with Him again (~knowing~ that you are forgiven, because He told you that you are). Taking God at His word about this (believing/trusting Him), especially when we don't "feel" like we've been forgiven in the moment, honors Him and is pleasing to Him :)

Remember too that the One who saved you in the first place also promised to continue His mighty work in you (by sanctifying you/making you more and more Christlike .. Philippians 1:6, 2:13), as well as seeing that you make it safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g. John 10:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13.

God bless you! (Jeremiah 29:11, 31:3)

--David
p.s. - Trust God!

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
.
 
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St_Worm2

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This video is 14 minutes long, but I think it will be both useful and an encouragement to you. It certainly has been to me :) Pastor Chuck Swindoll is the Chancellor of Dallas Theological Seminary, and this is an excerpt from a sermon or lecture that he gave to the student body and the staff at Dallas a few years back.

--David


quote-two-words-will-help-you-cope-when-you-run-low-on-hope-accept-and-trust-charles-r-swindoll-115-36-69.jpg
 
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NoahSK

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Honestly, I think this fear and a bunch of others that I have can all be summed up into the simple question: “Am I elect?” I’m constantly worried by this question. What if I’m just being deceived about my salvation? What if I’m destined to go to hell, and no matter how much I want to be with God, no matter how much I want to change, to become better, to be of service to God, ultimately to be saved, I’ll just be thrown out anyway. Honestly, my number one fear is not being one of the elect. This is caused by a bunch of stuff. I feel that I’m not properly repenting, resulting in me feeling unable to repent. I feel like I don’t hate my sin enough, I’m not producing enough fruits, I’ve got too many problems, I’ve done too much and can’t be forgiven, I’m reprobate, apostate, whatever. I don’t love God enough, maybe I hate Him, I don’t know. Not that I want to. I don’t have enough faith, I don’t feel enough zeal for Him. I doubt His nature, existence, the nature of Jesus, etc. And no matter how much I pray for things like this to happen, for more fruit, less sin, more love for Him and others, to give me the ability to repent, to let me believe without doubt, everything, no matter how many times I’ve cried out for God to save me and make me better, change me, grow me, nothing seems to change. I don’t feel any closer, any more sure of my salvation, even after repeated prayer, in tears, sobbing, waking up my entire family with my cries, praying for Him to grant me mercy, nothing seems to change. It’s like He’s completely shunned and forsaken me; He can’t or doesn’t hear me. Honestly, I feel like God just doesn’t want me. Or doesn’t care. Or hasn’t elected me.
 
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St_Worm2

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Honestly, I think this fear and a bunch of others that I have can all be summed up into the simple question: “Am I elect?” I’m constantly worried by this question. What if I’m just being deceived about my salvation? What if I’m destined to go to hell, and no matter how much I want to be with God, no matter how much I want to change, to become better, to be of service to God, ultimately to be saved, I’ll just be thrown out anyway. Honestly, my number one fear is not being one of the elect. This is caused by a bunch of stuff. I feel that I’m not properly repenting, resulting in me feeling unable to repent. I feel like I don’t hate my sin enough, I’m not producing enough fruits, I’ve got too many problems, I’ve done too much and can’t be forgiven, I’m reprobate, apostate, whatever. I don’t love God enough, maybe I hate Him, I don’t know. Not that I want to. I don’t have enough faith, I don’t feel enough zeal for Him. I doubt His nature, existence, the nature of Jesus, etc. And no matter how much I pray for things like this to happen, for more fruit, less sin, more love for Him and others, to give me the ability to repent, to let me believe without doubt, everything, no matter how many times I’ve cried out for God to save me and make me better, change me, grow me, nothing seems to change. I don’t feel any closer, any more sure of my salvation, even after repeated prayer, in tears, sobbing, waking up my entire family with my cries, praying for Him to grant me mercy, nothing seems to change. It’s like He’s completely shunned and forsaken me; He can’t or doesn’t hear me. Honestly, I feel like God just doesn’t want me. Or doesn’t care. Or hasn’t elected me.
Hi again Noah, there's that word "feel" again ;) It's a word that we need to be very careful about using, because it normally means (in this case) that we are trusting in someone or something else than our Savior (and in His voice) when we do.

I get what you're saying though. My father was an extreme alcoholic and I still have to fight not only Satan's voice, but my own (dysfunctional) inner voice that tells me that I'm simply not worthy of salvation, sometimes every day :(

The thing is though, my inner voice is correct. I'm NOT worthy of salvation! Never have been/never will be, but God (who "justifies the wicked" .. Romans 4:5, those of us who know that we are sick and in need of a Doctor anyway .. Mark 2:17) sent His Son here to do for us what we could ~never~ do for ourselves.

The bad news is this is, we need to obey the law to be saved, but none of us can. The good news/the Gospel is this, Jesus did everything we need to do to be saved for us/on our behalf, and God chose to save us graciously on that basis alone
(through our believing in His Son and in the works that He did for us). IOW, Jesus merited our salvation for us, therefore He is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement and satisfaction for our sins, and for the Father's wrath.

God loves you so much that He chose to die rather than live without you in eternity (or you w/o Him :)). Clearly He's not as interested in your performance as He is in having a relationship with you, yes! We are His adopted children and He sees us as having worth and value as human beings alone, not as human "doings" (if you get my meaning).

So begin to take those intrusive thoughts and feelings "captive" the moment that they enter your mind .. 2 Corinthians 10:5, and give them over to Jesus to deal with. Like I said earlier, it will take practice and time to make it into a habit, but I think you will see another one of God's promises begin to come to fruition in your life in very short order if you decide to make this practice a part of your daily walk. The promise I am speaking of is found here .. James 4:7.

It's not an easy thing to do, especially at first, but you need to choose to listen to God's voice ALONE, and always trust Him/take Him at His very word, no matter what Satan is whispering in your ear and/or no matter what you are feeling in the moment. This will honor and please the One who loves you and died for you, the One who wants you to believe and trust Him in this manner :preach:

God bless you! (Isaiah 40:31)

--David
p.s. - here is one of my favorite Spurgeon quotes, with one of my favorite Biblical quotes right below it :)

quote-my-hope-lives-not-because-i-am-not-a-sinner-but-because-i-am-a-sinner-for-whom-christ-charles-spurgeon-57-36-33.jpg

2 Corinthians 5
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
 
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St_Worm2

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Honestly, I think this fear and a bunch of others that I have can all be summed up into the simple question: “Am I elect?”
Hi Noah, I apologize for not addressing this concern for you directly. The only way any of us can know if we are among the elect is when God "quickens" our hearts, causes us to be "born again", and makes us into "new creatures" in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:4-5; cf Ephesians 2:10.

So the next question is, how can we know if we are truly believers, right?

We are commanded to test/examine ourselves to make sure that we are in the faith .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, but since we can't see the heart (even the true spiritual condition of our own hearts), along with the inward witness of the Holy Spirit, we need to rely on the things that "accompany" or "result" from our salvation to tell us that, what we do, what we say, how we think, etc., because a "true" Christian, generally speaking, "acts" like a Christian (at least more like one than we did when we were non-Christians anyway ;)).

As St. James said in the 2nd Chapter of his Epistle (in what I believe to be a somewhat tongue-in-cheek manner, BTW), "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works .. James 2:18.” The works and other things we do as a Christian do not save us, nor do they keep us saved, by they do help demonstrate the truth, IOW, that we are the Christians that we claim to be (or we are not).

If you don't mind, let's start talking about this by me asking you a few questions. Is there any discernible difference in the way that you live now (act/talk/think) when compared to the way that you used to live (act/talk/think) as a non-Christian? In regard to sin/sinning, for instance, does it bother you when you sin, and do you seek to repent and be forgiven whenever you do? And if you do this (repent/seek to be forgiven by God), is that something that you would say is different since becoming a Christian, or is it about the same as it was before when you were not a Christian?

Also, have your overall desires changed since you became a Christian? For instance, most non-Christians think a lot about what will please them, and very little (if at all) about intentionally doing things that would please/glorify God instead. Have you noticed any difference like that in your life when you think about your old life as a non-Christian and your new one now as a believer?

There's much more to discuss about all of this if you'd like to, but I'll stop here and wait for your answer(s).

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - do you attend church regularly, or perhaps a local Bible study or prayer group in your area by any chance?
 
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Hi Noah, I apologize for not addressing this concern for you directly. The only way any of us can know if we are among the elect is when God "quickens" our hearts, causes us to be "born again", and makes us into "new creatures" in Christ .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:4-5; cf Ephesians 2:10.

So the next question is, how can we know if we are truly believers, right?

We are commanded to test/examine ourselves to make sure that we are in the faith .. 2 Corinthians 13:5, but since we can't see the heart (even the true spiritual condition of our own hearts), along with the inward witness of the Holy Spirit, we need to rely on the things that "accompany" or "result" from our salvation to tell us that, what we do, what we say, how we think, etc., because a "true" Christian, generally speaking, "acts" like a Christian (at least more like one than we did when we were non-Christians anyway ;)).

As St. James said in the 2nd Chapter of his Epistle (in what I believe to be a somewhat tongue-in-cheek manner, BTW), "show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works .. James 2:18.” The works and other things we do as a Christian do not save us, nor do they keep us saved, by they do help demonstrate the truth, IOW, that we are the Christians that we claim to be (or we are not).

If you don't mind, let's start talking about this by me asking you a few questions. Is there any discernible difference in the way that you live now (act/talk/think) when compared to the way that you used to live (act/talk/think) as a non-Christian? In regard to sin/sinning, for instance, does it bother you when you sin, and do you seek to repent and be forgiven whenever you do? And if you do this (repent/seek to be forgiven by God), is that something that you would say is different since becoming a Christian, or is it about the same as it was before when you were not a Christian?

Also, have your overall desires changed since you became a Christian? For instance, most non-Christians think a lot about what will please them, and very little (if at all) about intentionally doing things that would please/glorify God instead. Have you noticed any difference like that in your life when you think about your old life as a non-Christian and your new one now as a believer?

There's much more to discuss about all of this if you'd like to, but I'll stop here and wait for your answer(s).

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - do you attend church regularly, or perhaps a local Bible study or prayer group in your area by any chance?
See, this is tough to answer. I’ve grown up in the church, and always had that grasp of who God and Jesus were and everything like that. I definitely held God in some degree of reverence. I would go to church almost every Sunday, pray whenever I felt I should, all of this other stuff. There are some sins that I am very reluctant to do (such as swearing, using the Lord’s name in vain, lying, and I had a huge fear of anything relating to the occult, to the point where I felt looking at anything even related to the occult or the devil required me to repent), and when I did, it felt off, and it didn’t sit well with me. For some reason, things like that I didn’t want to do for fear of upsetting the Lord or something. Yet there were plenty of other sins I had practically no problem doing. The biggest one for me is inappropriate contentography. For some reason, I thought I could do that as much as I wanted to and still be saved. When I finally came to learn just how wrong I was, of course I started to try and clean myself up. When I read the whole “not everyone who calls to me Lord, Lord” verse, that really began to make me question my faith. I honestly didn’t know a whole lot about my faith at that time. I tried to really get right with God and work out my salvation with MUCH fear and trembling. For a while, I quit inappropriate content completely, as I didn’t feel the desire anymore. Of course I saw this as a sign of maybe my salvation or something. I also had a stronger desire for the Lord than I ever had. I wanted to go to youth group and church more, read my Bible more, serve, go on mission trips, etc. However, that obviously didn’t last, or I wouldn’t be here. I began to have doubts about everything regarding God, His existence, and His character. I started becoming less and less sure of my salvation. The less sure I became, the less focused on serving Him I became, the less zeal for Him I had. I fell back into inappropriate content, which is where I’m at right now. Of course, now I don’t just blow it off as nothing to worry about, and I do try and ask God for forgiveness and at least put in SOME effort to not sin, but I don’t know if I have that godly sorrow that leads to repentance, or if I’m even repenting right. I feel like I’ve gone back to where I was before (well, not entirely; I’m still more worried about the eternal now than I was back then). And I know the story about the sower, so I kind of fear I’m in a rocky soil situation. So I really don’t know where I’m at. I feel like if I had full assurance of my salvation, I wouldn’t care about any other hardship in life. I feel I would have that zeal back, and I would be able to combat sin more. I would want to help and serve more. But right now, I have no assurance.
 
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See, this is tough to answer. I’ve grown up in the church, and always had that grasp of who God and Jesus were and everything like that. I definitely held God in some degree of reverence. I would go to church almost every Sunday, pray whenever I felt I should, all of this other stuff. There are some sins that I am very reluctant to do (such as swearing, using the Lord’s name in vain, lying, and I had a huge fear of anything relating to the occult, to the point where I felt looking at anything even related to the occult or the devil required me to repent), and when I did, it felt off, and it didn’t sit well with me. For some reason, things like that I didn’t want to do for fear of upsetting the Lord or something. Yet there were plenty of other sins I had practically no problem doing. The biggest one for me is inappropriate contentography. For some reason, I thought I could do that as much as I wanted to and still be saved. When I finally came to learn just how wrong I was, of course I started to try and clean myself up. When I read the whole “not everyone who calls to me Lord, Lord” verse, that really began to make me question my faith. I honestly didn’t know a whole lot about my faith at that time. I tried to really get right with God and work out my salvation with MUCH fear and trembling. For a while, I quit inappropriate content completely, as I didn’t feel the desire anymore. Of course I saw this as a sign of maybe my salvation or something. I also had a stronger desire for the Lord than I ever had. I wanted to go to youth group and church more, read my Bible more, serve, go on mission trips, etc. However, that obviously didn’t last, or I wouldn’t be here. I began to have doubts about everything regarding God, His existence, and His character. I started becoming less and less sure of my salvation. The less sure I became, the less focused on serving Him I became, the less zeal for Him I had. I fell back into inappropriate content, which is where I’m at right now. Of course, now I don’t just blow it off as nothing to worry about, and I do try and ask God for forgiveness and at least put in SOME effort to not sin, but I don’t know if I have that godly sorrow that leads to repentance, or if I’m even repenting right. I feel like I’ve gone back to where I was before (well, not entirely; I’m still more worried about the eternal now than I was back then). And I know the story about the sower, so I kind of fear I’m in a rocky soil situation. So I really don’t know where I’m at. I feel like if I had full assurance of my salvation, I wouldn’t care about any other hardship in life. I feel I would have that zeal back, and I would be able to combat sin more. I would want to help and serve more. But right now, I have no assurance.

Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

I keep seeing in your posts is the repetition of the words "I feel".

It's great that you feel, but feelings come and feelings go; feelings change. God and facts don't.

When we want to know truth about God we can examine the Bible. God is the same yesterday, today and forevermore..

You can feel distant from God and still be in a saved state, because being saved depends entirely upon God, His Work and His promises and not on how we feel.

When we want to know the truth about ourselves we must examine ourselves.

You said you had a concern about following God your whole life, about desiring to spend eternity with God, desiring salvation, and finding yourself refused the same on judgement day.

However, your fears aside the Bible says what? John 6:37 John 6:44

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

That's a fact from the Bible about the nature and promises of God. Whoever comes to Jesus will never be turned away.

Which means, those on Judgement Day saying Lord, Lord whom Jesus never knew, must not have "come to Jesus" for salvation. They do seem to have done a lot of stuff, but completely missed an essential with Jesus Himself and thus found themselves unknown to the Savior..

Of course, in the reformed tradition we would say that essential thing they missed is trusting in Jesus alone for salvation, instead of in their own ability to do enough stuff...

We have no excuse for our sin but if we have a saving faith, trusting in Christ for our salvation, He will work in us and bring us to our final completion...

We will have trials, we will have tribulations, and we will sometimes feel our Father's discipline, but when we belong to Him we can be certain that we will overcome this world through Christ.

So- Do you believe? Have you confessed with your tongue? Have you trusted in Christ?

If there is a kernel of faith, water it. It will grow.

Then in Christ you can work on individual sins..
 
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The purpose of this post isn’t to argue against Calvinism, since I for the most part agree with it. Rather, I want to ask a question that has been bothering me for a while.

Knowing that a Christian can't lose their salvation, how can we be assured of our salvation, when at any time we can decide to up and quit on Christianity? I've had a few times where I've felt like giving up. How can I be assured knowing that I might some time in the future give up?

I only want people who agree that salvation can’t be lost to answer please; I don’t want to get into theological arguments.
So the issue is not that you WILL give up, but that you FEAR will give up. (That's OCD, in case you didn't recognize it!) With OCD, we always feel like it would be so easy to slip into the thing we're afraid of doing (in your case, being a reprobate or not elect). But the truth is, it's not as easy as we think it is. Anyway, the bottom line is that BECAUSE fear of losing your salvation is your obsession right now, you have to try NOT to seek reassurance. You basically have to tell yourself, "Because of my OCD, I can't feel sure and happy about this right now, because my OCD will not let me. I have to learn to feel uncertain about it first. I have to resign myself to feeling yucky about it right now, putting up with those anxiety feelings and NOT trying to do my compulsions to make them go away. I can't stop those yucky anxious fears from coming, but I CAN control my actions. I can choose to follow God, NO MATTER HOW I FEEL." Because, here's the thing: your OCD wants you to feel perfectly happy and assured BEFORE you move forward. But it will never let you feel happy and assured by doing your compulsions. So what you have to do, as backwards as it feels, is move forward BEFORE you feel happy and assured. Your normal feelings will return to you - but you have to learn to ignore the OCD first. It hurts, but as you practice, it will get easier, and it will be so worth it!!
 
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I am kind of in the same situation, I don't know if I am saved, I don't feel right or close to God and I used to be close to Him before. I used to make Him my first priority and now I don't think I do that. Today, someone told me that I am not saved and that I have been believing that I am saved. I don't know what to do, I accepted Jesus into my heart and confessed and etc but the person said that I might have done it without being wholehearted and sincere. But what I say to God is really sincere (i think it is) everything i tell God I mean it. I can't believe that I am not saved and I don't know what to do to become saved because even if I have trusted in God apparently I am not saved and I am like the "rocky soil" who only comes to God for a while and then goes back but I just want to stay with God but it is not looking possible right now and I don't know what to do anymore. I have told God to save me but I still don't think that I am saved because I only come to God for a while, like I only stay right with Him for a short time, then I leave and come back, and the cycle keeps going. I don't know what to do please help because I don't want to go to hell
 
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mukk_in

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I am kind of in the same situation, I don't know if I am saved, I don't feel right or close to God and I used to be close to Him before. I used to make Him my first priority and now I don't think I do that. Today, someone told me that I am not saved and that I have been believing that I am saved. I don't know what to do, I accepted Jesus into my heart and confessed and etc but the person said that I might have done it without being wholehearted and sincere. But what I say to God is really sincere (i think it is) everything i tell God I mean it. I can't believe that I am not saved and I don't know what to do to become saved because even if I have trusted in God apparently I am not saved and I am like the "rocky soil" who only comes to God for a while and then goes back but I just want to stay with God but it is not looking possible right now and I don't know what to do anymore. I have told God to save me but I still don't think that I am saved because I only come to God for a while, like I only stay right with Him for a short time, then I leave and come back, and the cycle keeps going. I don't know what to do please help because I don't want to go to hell
We're all that way. Don't worry, He's got you covered (2 Timothy 2:13). God bless:).
 
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NoahSK

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I am kind of in the same situation, I don't know if I am saved, I don't feel right or close to God and I used to be close to Him before. I used to make Him my first priority and now I don't think I do that. Today, someone told me that I am not saved and that I have been believing that I am saved. I don't know what to do, I accepted Jesus into my heart and confessed and etc but the person said that I might have done it without being wholehearted and sincere. But what I say to God is really sincere (i think it is) everything i tell God I mean it. I can't believe that I am not saved and I don't know what to do to become saved because even if I have trusted in God apparently I am not saved and I am like the "rocky soil" who only comes to God for a while and then goes back but I just want to stay with God but it is not looking possible right now and I don't know what to do anymore. I have told God to save me but I still don't think that I am saved because I only come to God for a while, like I only stay right with Him for a short time, then I leave and come back, and the cycle keeps going. I don't know what to do please help because I don't want to go to hell
Who told you this? Just curious.
 
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Esohe

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Did he/she tell you why?
He said that because when I explained to Him that I don't feel close to God and I only come to God for a while then go back and then come again(repeated cycle), he asked me to choose which of the soils Jesus was talking about that represents me and I said that I might be the rocky soil but I wasn't sure.So he said I wasn't saved, and when He told me what to do to be saved (accept Jesus, etc) I said I did that but he told me that it might have been lack of wholeheartdness and that I might not have been sincere.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi @Esohe, if you don't mind me asking, can you point to things that are different about how you lead your life now (generally speaking, how you act/talk/think), since becoming a Christian, especially when you look back at how you lived (generally acted/talked/thought) prior to that time (prior to becoming a Christian)?

IOW, do you believe that your life has been changed in any discernible ways (inwardly AND outwardly) since the time that you believe you came to Christ*, or are you still basically living your life like you did before you came to Christ?

*(was there a moment in time that you can look back to when you became a Christian, or did you grow up in the church and become one along the say, so to speak, in such a way that you don't really have precise moment in your life that you can actually point to? Just FYI, true believers have come to Christ in both ways, some knowing the moment it happened, at least generally speaking, and some not having any idea when it happened, like Billy and Ruth Graham)

Thanks :)

--David
p.s. - there are a number of more specific questions that I'd like to ask you as well (if you'd like me to), but I'll wait for your answer(s) to the question above first. What does your pastor have to say about this? Is he in agreement with your counselor? Thanks again!


quote-it-is-not-the-absence-of-sin-but-the-grieving-over-it-which-distinguishes-the-child-arthur-w-pink-70-74-09.jpg
 
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NoahSK

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I also feel like I'm the rocky soil or something. I grew up in the church and always had a respect for God. I think I remember saying a prayer with someone at a VBS I went to and I think it might have been to accept Jesus. However, when I began to hit puberty I quickly developed an obsession to inappropriate content and stuff (honestly, I remember having some sort of interest with naked/half-naked women since I was extremely young, I honestly don't know why. Sorry if I'm saying too much). When I first started, I felt really guilty about it and always felt the need to tell my mom about it when I did it. Over time, though, it got worse and worse, and I stopped caring. Besides that, though, I avoided most other sins. Well, I didn't really think about God too much, at least not for the most part; I spent most of my time playing video games and watching YouTube, a habit I've kept to this day. (I quit playing completely for several months, and only began playing again recently. I think I might be playing too much again.) I developed OCD and began worrying about everything. I remember during this time I was always afraid I was going to hell for doing different things. Until recently, my understanding of the Bible and Christianity was pretty limited. Anyway, after I stopped having OCD, I began to really develop and obsession for everything related to sex and stuff. This happened around 6-7th grade. I convinced myself that as long as I believed in God and Jesus and the stuff in the Bible, I was good and could be forgiven. For the longest time, I felt practically no guilt or shame or anything at all. In fact, I was practically ready to have sex when and if the situation arose. I planned on kind of sleeping around when I got older and not really committing. Obviously not Christian behavior. However, it was only in the sex area that I had this mindset. I still maintained Christian conduct in most other areas for the most part. As I got older, I began to stray a bit. I began to listen to rap, I cussed a few times, and I began to follow the crowd basically. I want to say that I think the people at my school probably had the most influence on my bad behaviors, since they were also "Christians" (professing? Not my place to judge) and did alot of worldly, non Christian things. This made me think I could do them too and br fine. I don't think I ever repented in the proper sense, I had the idea that if I didn't ask for forgiveness for my sins, I would go to hell. So whenever I had some sense of impending doom or felt something was going to happen and I might die, I would quickly pray for God to forgive my sins. Stupid stuff like that. There were occasions when I would be in church and would raise my hand to rededicate my life to Christ or whatever, sometimes every Sunday for weeks in a row, but would end up not really changing at all. There were other times when I would feel convicted by a sermon and would try to change my habits somewhat to read my Bible more, stop watching inappropriate content, etc. But none of that lasted very long. Anyway, around December last year/January this year, I began to read stuff about how false conversions and fake Christians and how they weren't really saved, and how true Christians wouldn't keep sinning without repenting, basically like I was. I began to question my faith, and I decided to fully dedicate my life to God. My life saw a dramatic change, in my behavior, my wants, my attitude, stuff like that. I also lost my sexual desires completely. It was great. I felt this joy come over me. I began to want to read the Bible, go to church, go to youth group (which I didn't go to pretty much at all before then) and stuff like that. I wanted to serve in church and go on mission trips. This lasted for maybe a month? And then things began spiralling out of control. My OCD came back, I kept doubting my salvation, and even my faith, and stuff kept happening in my life that made all the good feelings and all the desires and stuff go away. I would never feel secure in Christ for long before something else would come up that would make me question my salvation and stuff again (read any of my many posts here and you'll see what I mean). I began to grow cold toward Christ, I stopped reading my Bible, church and stuff didn't interest me much anymore, I began to spend most of my time doing other things again, I began watching inappropriate content again, and this whole downward spiral of emotions and just stuff in general happened until now, where I feel like I'm back to where I was when I started. I can't seem to get that joy and peace back. I don't see any fruits being produced or whatever in me, only this sin and this lack of fire for God or whatever. I still constantly doubt my salvation, which only makes it worse. I've gotten to the point where at times I've just stopped caring entirely, I've felt like giving up on God completely, because it seemed like nothing was changing. I've prayed and cried out to Him countless times with literal tears, asking Him to save me, change my heart, help me produce good fruit, help me stop sinning, help me repent (I don't feel I'm properly repenting; I confess my sins and ask for forgiveness, but only out of fear? I don't really see any change happening in me, and I don't really commit to turning from my sin. I have a post for that too as well somewhere here where I go more indepth.) I've feared that God had abandoned me, that I was an apostate, reprobate, unforgivable, an Esau (John Piper and John MacArthur, along with few others, have pointed to Esau being unable to repent, though he wanted to and cried for it. I've felt that my heart was just so hardened that I couldn't repent even if I wanted to, and I would wail and sob because I felt I was like Esau. Also a post on here for that.) All of this stuff has kind of driven me from God a bit I guess, and I feel like I'm kind of back to where I was before all this went down. The only differences that I can still observe from then to now is that now I know what salvation looks like and can see that my life does not look like that, my desires have somewhat changed (maybe? I keep praying for God to change my desires and help me to want to stop sinning and to want to serve Him and stuff), and that now I care more about my sin and don't just let it go. I feel some sort of guilt when I sin now and at least feel the need to ask for forgiveness for the most part. I don't know, my life's all over the place right now.

Long story short, when I first began really being concerned about my salvation, I cried out to God, felt saved most of the time, felt this peace and joy come over me, my desires changed to good desires like reading th4 bible, praying, and wanting to go to church more, I spent more time with God, I watched what my actions and behavior, and I saw that it changed. I had no more desire to sin, and I stopped watching inappropriate content completely, which I saw as proof that God was working in my life. I loved it and thought it would last the rest of my life. I thought my whole life was changed. It didn't last that long, I began to worry about salvation again, different things have happened in my life that made me question my salvation and whether I'm even one of the elect. My bad habits returned, my good ones left, my good desires kind of went away and my old ones came back, I don't feel changed anymore, and I feel I'm in the same place I was before this all started. There you have it. I can't seem to stay close to God before too long before drifting again. I constantly ask God to save me and change me into what a Christian is supposed to be. I've prayed for Him to change my heart and help me love Him more and hate sin more, and I've asked Him to change my desires, but it seems like nothing's really changing. There you have it, my life story. Sounds a lot like a bunch of rocky soil to me. Thing is, if I'm not saved now, I don't know if I'll ever be able to, or if I'll ever have any assurance at all ever again. If all of the peace and joy I've felt was fake, if all of the crying out to God did nothing, I don't know what else to do. I can't want salvation any more than I do right now. I can't be any more sincere than I have been over these long past several months. I can't "repent" any more sincerely than I have. I've done all I can. I can't work up any more sincerity in any area. I've poured my whole heart into this; I've cried out to God all that I can. I can't work anything more up in me. I've given it all I have. I've asked over and over for a change. If I'm not saved now because of something I'm not doing any of the above enough or whatever, then I'm never going to be saved. I can't do anything else. I've let God know how much I want it. If I'm not saved yet, I don't think I ever will be. But I definitely don't feel saved and I don't feel changed. I don't see any real changes in my life. I don't think so, anyway. So, I'm stuck. I'm tempted to conclude that my sincerity wasn't enough for God to decide to save me, and since I've been as sincere as I possibly can, I'll never be saved.

Following that logic, I have to conclude that I'm either a reprobate, apostate, have done something unforgivable, or am like Esau where I want to repent, but can't. I can't repent any more sincerely than I have been, but it doesn't feel like true repentance since my sinful desires and attitudes and actions haven't ceased in the slightest, really. Maybe a little, but not much. I have separate posts on all of these thing where I go in more detail. Honestly, to fully understand where I'm at, you've gotta read every post I've ever made on this site. But that's asking way too much.

So there you are. Sorry it was a bit long, but couldn't leave anything out. Can't risk that.

Edit: didn't realize how long this post was, dang. Probably my longest post on probably any site. Still, please don't skim, or you'll miss something important. Or do, it's your right. You're not entitled at all to care about my dilemma. Which is fine. I'm insignificant anyway.
 
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Mari17

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I am kind of in the same situation, I don't know if I am saved, I don't feel right or close to God and I used to be close to Him before. I used to make Him my first priority and now I don't think I do that. Today, someone told me that I am not saved and that I have been believing that I am saved. I don't know what to do, I accepted Jesus into my heart and confessed and etc but the person said that I might have done it without being wholehearted and sincere. But what I say to God is really sincere (i think it is) everything i tell God I mean it. I can't believe that I am not saved and I don't know what to do to become saved because even if I have trusted in God apparently I am not saved and I am like the "rocky soil" who only comes to God for a while and then goes back but I just want to stay with God but it is not looking possible right now and I don't know what to do anymore. I have told God to save me but I still don't think that I am saved because I only come to God for a while, like I only stay right with Him for a short time, then I leave and come back, and the cycle keeps going. I don't know what to do please help because I don't want to go to hell
I'd be VERY VERY cautious of what people who are not familiar with OCD tell you. Many well-meaning people have NO IDEA of how OCD works in the brain. It's kind of counter-intuitive, because OCD stretches the truth to us but makes it appear to be the truth. If I was truly everything that my OCD has told me I was over the years, I would be a filthy, germ-ridden person, a liar, a person who had made promises to God that I didn't intend to keep, an unbeliever, a child molester, and a devil worshipper. Those are literally some of the things OCD has made me feel that I am, at different points in my life. Thanks be to God, I have come through each one of those obsessions, but going through them is torture. Which is why I say to you and to all who have OCD: have hope. As terrible as you feel today, THERE IS HOPE for getting through your obsession and finding a place of peace and victory again. It takes work, but it is so possible. Learn how to deal with your obsession using ERP and CBT therapy techniques. That means, instead of trying to convince yourself that your fear isn't real (which is what OCD wants, because it can always think of a counterargument), you let go and act as if it's not true, no matter how badly you feel that it's true. In your case, you know you've asked to be saved, so you trust that you are, even BEFORE you feel convinced. In doing that, you gradually convince your OCD, despite its efforts to sidetrack you. I can talk more about this process if you want, but l just want to point out not everyone is qualified to give advice about how to treat OCD. I've had people I trust, wonderful Christian people, give me "solid" advice that might apply if there were a real problem but does NOT apply to OCD.
 
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