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Assumption of the Theotokos debunked...

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Bushmaster78FS, Mar 11, 2011.

  1. Bushmaster78FS

    Bushmaster78FS Senior Contributor

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    Remember the ex-Orthodox friend I have who wanted to be a priest and then left the church? Here's the latest from him;

    The Assumption of Mary Reviewed

    So why do we fools believe fairy tales and not Scriptures?

    Have at it, my wife had kept him as a friend on Facebook and I had re-added him to encourage him, pray for him and hope for him. Not anymore. Not one more minute of thought or prayer for him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2011
  2. musicluvr83

    musicluvr83 Regular Member

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    Well, can still pray for him. 'Shake the dust off your feet' as it were, but there is always hope. God help him! Lord, have mercy!
     
  3. Coralie

    Coralie but behold, there cometh one after me

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    That he's so misled is a sign that you/we should pray MORE for him, surely? "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."

    Lord, have mercy.
     
  4. Kristos

    Kristos Servant

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    His facts appear to be 100% correct.

    Is the Assumption of Mary a historical fact? You might be surprised that some EO scholars say "we don't know". But what does that mean to the spiritual truth that is given to us in the great feast? Perhaps nothing. Mary is not part of "the good news", she is not the gospel Christ. She is the inner contemplation of the Church, of those seeking a more complete union with God. How could we find a more worthy prototype of the Christian struggle than the one who "bore God" in her womb? But this is not for the world to contemplate, this is for the Church - perhaps we need to remember Mary's words that ARE in the Gospel wrt the issue:
    The Gospel of Christ is to be proclaimed from the mountain tops! While Mary is meant to be kept in the heart. That is the difference and that is why some people will never understand...

    my 2 cents anyway...
     
  5. Bushmaster78FS

    Bushmaster78FS Senior Contributor

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    No I have given up on him. We have had enough of his Orthodox Church bashings.
     
  6. Damaris

    Damaris Active Member

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    Well, let him be a reminder to you that there's no one in this life who has climbed so high on the ladder that he cannot fall. FTR, there are people who get all the way through seminary, get ordained, and THEN leave the Church. He is extremely lucky not to have made it that far.

    And do pray for him, because that's a good thing in any case, but don't read what he writes, because it obviously doesn't do you any good.
     
  7. Bushmaster78FS

    Bushmaster78FS Senior Contributor

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    No I am extremely furious right now that I might blow steam out of my ears.
     
  8. ProScribe

    ProScribe Well-Known Member

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    I've never had any particular issues accepting Mary the Mother of God as dogma.
     
  9. Ortho_Cat

    Ortho_Cat Orthodox Christian

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    I remember my priest said once that to proclaim the assumption as doctrine is truly an assumption.
     
  10. Ortho_Cat

    Ortho_Cat Orthodox Christian

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    Hey, at least he didn't fall into atheism after he left the Church...
     
  11. Bushmaster78FS

    Bushmaster78FS Senior Contributor

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    I can't tell if he is better or worse in his current state of arrogance.
     
  12. Ortho_Cat

    Ortho_Cat Orthodox Christian

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    "If your church calls it part of their sacred tradition, ask why something with such a flawed and questionable source is not only declared apostolic, but is said to be on equal with holy scripture."

    Surely he is smart enough to realize that is not true in the least. That is a strawman if i've ever seen one, set up entirely for those who aren't discerning enough to realize it, and who are gullible enough to believe it outright.

    edit: On second thought, perhaps he is referring to the RC view here. We cannot speak for that, but he does seem to be attempting to group the Orthodox in with them for the most part.
     
  13. Gregorios

    Gregorios Blessed is our God

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    The Assumption of the Blessed Theotokos is a reality, the Church has said it and so it is. Just because it's not in Scripture and it cannot be proven "historically" doesn't mean it never happend, I believe with my whole heart that the Mother of God was assumed into Heaven after her repose because the Church has said this is so. Call me a fool if you want but I put all my hope in Christ's Church.
     
  14. Gregorios

    Gregorios Blessed is our God

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    ""...Orthodox tradition is clear and unwavering in regard to the central point [of the Dormition]: the Holy Virgin underwent, as did her Son, a physical death, but her body – like His – was afterwards raised from the dead and she was taken up into heaven, in her body as well as in her soul. She has passed beyond death and judgement, and lives wholly in the Age to Come. The Resurrection of the Body ... has in her case been anticipated and is already an accomplished fact. That does not mean, however, that she is dissociated from the rest of humanity and placed in a wholly different category: for we all hope to share one day in that same glory of the Resurrection of the Body which she enjoys even now."- Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
     
  15. Bushmaster78FS

    Bushmaster78FS Senior Contributor

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    The problem is that he is a Google scholar, he conjures these blog posts quickly that he could get brownie points among his audience which is sadly not more than fingers of one hand. You can see how he convolutes the article with a ton of "sources" he finds through Google, but his remarks towards what he finds and the way he connects his research to a conclusion is always biased and appear amateurish.

    See how he accepts St. John Damascene's writings but then disregards them as he proposes that the saint had no ability to discern on the origins of the tradition as it was already too late, what he doesn't realize that none of St. John of Damascus writings are original copies of his work, all of them being much later copies so he doesn't even know if any of it was written by St. John. Although he is quick to say, St. Cyril had been dead for 200 years so the homily on the Dormition, he is supposed to have written is a forgery. What about the MILLION traditions surround his "God breathed/infallible" Scriptures? Most of the info we have come from Eusebius who lived when? Way after the facts.... But he doesn't treat the Scriptures in that aspect.


    He is clueless about the early church, and the church history, he is a liar, a hypocrite, and a charlatan . Good riddance!
     
  16. Bushmaster78FS

    Bushmaster78FS Senior Contributor

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    Brother, stop the circular reasoning,:p didn't you see his several arguments in his debunking of the tradition?

    Argument #4: The "Believe the Church" Fallacy

    Argument: The Apostolic Church teaches it, therefore it must be so.

    Dilemma: This is 100% circular reasoning. In order to accept this, you have to first accept the presupposition that the "apostolic" church in question is infallible, which is in and of itself circular reasoning. It should likewise be noted that I have heard this argument made even when all previous evidence already stated in this post has been brought forward. At this point, it's just appealing to authority of the individual church group, despite evidence that this group is in error.


    We, traditional Christians commit circular reasoning all the time, only holy protestant seminary students such as himself are immune to it and they have perfect logic to explain the mysteries of God.
     
  17. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

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    My prayers.
     
  18. Gregorios

    Gregorios Blessed is our God

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    The irony is of course that by rejecting our tradition, he is also rejecting scripture itself. Who decided what books were authoritative and inspired by God?...so if we were wrong about the Assumption, we must be wrong about Holy Scripture right? I mean if you throw out the infallability of the Church, who knows what else we were wrong about?
     
  19. All4Christ

    All4Christ +The Handmaid of God Laura+ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I thought it was the dormition that the Orthodox Church definitely taught, and that the assumption was more of a pious opinion. Is this wrong? I was under the impression that the assumption was more of a Catholic dogma.
     
  20. All4Christ

    All4Christ +The Handmaid of God Laura+ Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    To clarify, I refer to assumption in the catholic belief of Mary being assumed into heaven before dying, as opposed to the dormition where she died and then was taken to heaven.