• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

ratchet30

Wanderer In A Strange Land
Apr 26, 2011
254
8
Pennsylvania
✟17,849.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I am interested in the AOG pentacostal church and I have a few questions. Do they believe in eternal security? do YOU believe that tongues must accompany baptism in the holy spirit? Are the AOGs much different from a decade or 2 ago (a friend told me his church doesn't do healings and others gifts like they used to).

For those who dont believe in eternal security, explain passages like
eph 1:13-14; 4:30
John 6:37,39; 10:27-29
rom 8:35-39; 11:29
1 peter 1:5

and then give me verses that prove conditional security

I'd appreciate your responses since I'm truly interested in the pentecostal teachings. I've been going to this meeting where I've seen some slain in the spirit and stories of experiences such as dreams, visions and some have come true and we have a prophet and divine healers as well.

 
Jun 27, 2012
159
8
alshawitz
✟22,856.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The AOG does not believe in eternal security. They believe that speaking in tongues is the "initial physical evidence" of baptism in the Holy Spirit. You can study Galatians to see that eternal security is not a Bible doctrine. There are many other Scriptures against etermal security but I can't look them up right now. Everyone is asleep at my house right now. Galatians is about people who were saved for sure before (having begun in the Spirit) but were going back. This book of the Bible disproves the eternal security doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Site Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,666
8,037
.
Visit site
✟1,241,934.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
There are several denominations that are descendents of the teachings of John Wesley and the Holy Club...

1. Assemblies of God - Probably the most mature of this family... Missouri based.
2. Pentecostal Holiness - I belong to this one! Originally North Carolina based.
3. Congregational Holiness - Georgia based denomination
4. Church of God - Tennessee based denomination

These denominations still keep the old Wesleyan ways of having open air meetings in the form of tent campaigns and camp meetings.

However... As John Wesley was Armenian so these denominations also stayed away from the doctrines of John Calvin (like eternal security). George Whitefield embraced the doctrines of Calvin and birthed the Freewill Baptist Church. As the Holy Spirit birthed Wesleyan churches so he never led any of these churches to the teachings of John Calvin. Sorry!

The Wesleyan Methods...

1. Justification - Faith (The bible mentions in several instances... We are justified by faith)
2. Salvation - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!
3. Sanctification - The Methodists believed that this came with a sweet spirit
4. The Witness of the Spirit - We Pentecostals would claim this with tongues.

The thing that worries me the most about Pentecostalism these days is that they are forgetting that sanctification comes before the witness. Sanctification is what allows the beauty of the Spirit to shine through an individual. With Sanctification comes love and a sweet spirit.

So here is a definition of sanctification given by John Wesley himself.

Wesleyan Heritage Series: Entire Sanctification

"Entire sanctification is a state of perfect love, righteousness and true holiness which every regenerate believer may obtain by being delivered from the power of sin, by loving God with all the heart, soul, mind and strength, and by loving one's neighbor as one's self. Through faith in Jesus Christ this gracious gift may be received in this life both gradually and instantaneously, and should be sought earnestly by every child of God." - John Wesley
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Jun 27, 2012
159
8
alshawitz
✟22,856.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I am glad to hear that you know a prophet they have not put in the mental hospital. I have the gift of prophecy and some people have called me a prophet. Some people agree with prophesying but do not call me a prophet. It doesn't matter much to me. I just want people to be blessed and to believe the prophecy from the Lord. It really only bothers me when someone does not believe the prophecy for them, no matter what they call me. And it bothers me when people ruin their prophecy. For example, a man told me he wanted a wife (he was completely single) and the Lord gave me a prophecy for him that God would send someone to him soon. A few months later he was engaged to be married just like the prophecy said. But he made a big mistake and moved in with his fiancee before they were married. Things went bad because of this and God removed His favor, (God will not bless premarital living together). So it bothers me and I worry that he blames me but it is not my fault or God's fault that he made a bad decision. If God gives you a prophecy don't ruin things. Not that you are but it is just something I wanted to share.
 
Upvote 0
Jun 27, 2012
159
8
alshawitz
✟22,856.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

There is actually an Assembly of God holiness movement in Missouri. I went to Bible college there in Neosho, Missouri. Not sure how they became holiness Pentecostal but they really believe it. God bless.
 
Upvote 0

Bob Carabbio

Old guy -
Dec 22, 2010
2,274
569
82
Glenn Hts. TX
✟43,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am interested in the AOG pentacostal church and I have a few questions.
Do they believe in eternal security?


No. If you're really interested in their position: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4178_security.pdf

I haven't read it, but probably know all their Arguments. It's not something I have any concern over, however. A "Doctrine" (particularly a controversial one) offers no "REAL security" at all. I'm not going to base MY "Security" on which denomination/systematic has the "Better schools". That would be foolish.

"do YOU believe that tongues must accompany baptism in the holy spirit?"

I Believe that "tongues" are still the "Normative experience" for one who is Baptized in the Holy Spirit, and the AoG teaches tongues as "Initial physical evidence" as one of their 16 fundamental truths (#8). I've spoken in tongues for 39 years now.

"Are the AOGs much different from a decade or 2 ago"

BOY HOWDY!! Are they ever!!! I've been in the AoG since '63. Some years ago, Thomas Trask, who was the General Superintendent of the Denomination made the statement that: If the trend we see today continues, in a decade the Assemblies of God will be a "Pentecostal Denomination in NAME ONLY".

The trend HAS continued, and in the Dallas area, most AoG churches could be mistaken for Baptist churches that forgot to change their signs.

IN another respect, in the '60s the AoG was a VERY Legalistic, and "Clothesline Holiness" bunch, that spent a LOT of time trying to "Stay saved" (since one un-confessed sin would take you out of salvation - RIGHT NOW!!) according to "Wesleyan holiness" teachings. With the influx of Charismatics after the Charismatic outpouring ended in the late '70s, the Denomination, particularly in the U.S. "Liberalized", and became MUCH less legalistic, and started to understand the "Security of the believer" better.

Re- "Eternal Security:
I'm sure, that if you've been around much Bible teaching, you already know the following:

The "Standard way of developing a "denominational doctrine" is:

1) Find all the "Proof texts" that support what you want to believe, and Catalogue 'em as your "Artillery" to "convince" other people with.

2) THEN Find all the Texts that "Refute" what you want to believe, and invent reasonable sounding explanations for why they DON'T say what they say, and Catalogue 'em as your "answers to rendered objections" against what you want to believe.

Folks on the "opposite side" of your belief will do the same thing, except #2 becomes #1 for them - etc.

PERSONALLY (since the AoG doctrinal position on things doesn't "define mine")
I started out believing in, and teaching "Eternal security" since I was saved, and initially indoctrinated as a Baptist, and at the time, and for over a decade afterwards, I could argue it all the way from Noah's Ark (God shut the door and it was NEVER opened again) forward.

But then I realized that Both Arminians and Calvies agree essentially on the security issue -

"Ralph" gets gloriously SAVED, and start off in his Christian walk just right, in church everytime the doors are open, testifies, sings, prays - and after a while - maybe a LONG while - he "cools", and isn't seen at church as much, and a while later He's seen coming out of a bar with a lady that's not his wife, and after a while he's drunk most of the time, and won't even TALK about the Lord any more.

The "Eternal security advocate" then invokes the "Calvinist back door" and proclaims: "HE WAS NEVER REALLY SAVED" as he's required to do by his theology.

The Conditional Security advocate Proclaims "HE was saved, and but fell away!!" as he's required to do by his theology.

Both sides agree completely - poor Ralph's not saved NOW, and needs to be reached for the Lord so that he doesn't perish.

"Eternal Security" as a doctrine, in fact, is useless to everybody EXCEPT the backslider, who's trying to define how LITTLE attention he can pay to the Lord, and still keep his "Fire insurance".

The Christian who's growing in the Lord, and deepening His relationship with Him, and learning of Him, and witnessing for Him doesn't give a second thought to "Doctrinal security" because he has a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God that he's "Secure" in.

And personally, I'll take RELATIONAL security over any "Doctrinal Security" any day - In fact until I trashed "Eternal Security" as a "Belief", I really WASN'T ACTUALLY "Secure" at all.

Oh, and there's always the "Biggie" in Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh," and put him to an open shame.

I used to remember the Calvie "Work-arounds" for this one - seems they were generally trying to claim that it's NOT a "Christian" that's being discussed here at all.

Of particular help to me back in the day, was Robert Shanks' book "Life in the Son". Shanks was a professor of theology at a Baptist College, and was charged with the writing of a scholarly treatise Scripturally DEFENDING "Eternal Security" as a doctrine. What he ended up writing was a defense of CONDITIONAL PERSEVERANCE, that was a great help to me in shedding the OSAS baggage I had carried from the Baptists for years.

Wiki has a nice section on "Conditional preservation" at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_preservation_of_the_saints
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ratchet30

Wanderer In A Strange Land
Apr 26, 2011
254
8
Pennsylvania
✟17,849.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Has anyone heard of a gift that when someone sleeps, people can ask questions and they answer while still asleep. They don't respond in every instance they sleep but it sounds most interesting. I've heard of a story when they were sleeping they said that a man in a wheelchair needed healing and seconds later the guy came out of the store they were near.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like a long night of hypnosis to me where the hypnotist went home and forgot to click his fingers.

On a more serious note, I wouldn't be seeing this type of activity as being of the Spirit but maybe there a few tele-evangelists who wouldn't mind saying that this is 'the latest thing in God'...maybe I should have used god instead of God.
 
Upvote 0