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Ashes in Hell: Do they support conditional immortality, eternal torment, or universalism?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 17, 2021.

  1. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I clicked on your link and as I said in my previous post "Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective verses out-of-context."
    Merely saying some version of "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" is not a compelling response.
    I never read the two scholars you quoted. Several years ago on this forum, FYI, I have been active on this forum for more than 2 decades, someone quoted the selective Psa 37 verses quoted in this thread. I read the Psalm through without reading any scholars and I came to the conclusions I posted. For example,

    Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    Reading the verse my first conclusion it does not refer to man's eternal fate.
    See e.g. 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation.

    Psa 37:9 For evil-doers shall be cut off; but those that wait for the LORD, they shall inherit the land.
    What does "olam" mean? I'm retired this forum is more or less my day job. One day I reviewed every occurrence of "olam" in the O.T. I found 18 verses where "olam" is defined/described by other words or phrases. Here are the first 6 vss. Although olam sometimes refers to something which is not /cannot be "eternal' unlike the vss I quote below it is never described/defined as a period less than eternal.
    [1]Exodus 3:15
    (15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
    In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “unto all generations.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“eternal” does.
    [2]Psalms 119:44
    (44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” and “ad” is paralleled with “continually.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “continually,” “eternal” does.
    [3]Psalms 21:4
    (4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “length of days”. “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days, “eternal does.
    [4]Psalms 45:17
    (17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “all generations”, “eternal” does.
    [5]Ezekiel 27:36
    (36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
    [6]Ezekiel 28:19
    (19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
    In these 2 vss. “olam” is juxtaposed with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.




     
  2. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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  3. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    100% of all verses would fit CI perfectly, or it must be wrong, of course.

    It's because 100% of verses don't fit the ECT theory -- some verses directly contradict the ECT idea -- that I therefore tend to think it's unlikely correct.

    But one thing I don't do is ""You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" -- that's a sin actually to do -- Romans 14:1. You're correct to beware it. Of course, we want to look at ourselves (not others!) for checking on it....
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This does not make sense. If a verse fits "eternal punishment" it cannot fit CI and vice versa.
    Here is the post I responded to.
    Then please show me where you said e.g. "Your point X is incorrect because <reasoned explanation.>"
     
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 11:21
    Jesus said, “It will be bad for you Chorazin! It will be bad for you Bethsaida! I did many miracles in you. If these same miracles had happened in Tyre and Sidon, the people there would have changed their lives a long time ago. They would have worn sackcloth and put ashes on themselves to show that they were sorry for their sins.

    Luke 10:13
    Jesus Warns People Who Refuse to Believe
    “It will be bad for you, Chorazin! It will be bad for you, Bethsaida! I did many miracles in you. If those same miracles had happened in Tyre and Sidon, then the people in those cities would have changed their lives and stopped sinning a long time ago. They would have worn sackcloth and sat in ashes to show that they were sorry for their sins.

    Hebrews 9:13
    The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a cow were sprinkled on those who were no longer pure enough to enter the place of worship. The blood and ashes made them pure again—but only their bodies.

    2 Peter 2:6
    God also punished the evil cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. He burned them until there was nothing left but ashes. He used those cities as an example of what will happen to people who are against God.

    Scripture does not say there are ashes in hell.
     
  6. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    If there were ashes in heaven, they would not have to be human.
    and, if they were human, their spirit still lives. Matthew 25:46
     
  7. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    the "please look at post #52" for why. God bless.
     
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Sorry amigo your unsupported opinion about which verses are metaphorical/not metaphorical is far from a compelling argument.
    You misquote Matthew 10:28 it does NOT say "God will 'destroy body and soul'" It says "the one who can destroy body and soul in hell."
    What God created He certainly can destroy but not one single verse says God has or did destroy even one soul in hell or anywhere else.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  9. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Because He can, but won't? Jesus was just making up an imaginary scenario at this moment, in what clearly isn't being told as a parable: this sentence? (that would be very highly unlikely a meaning in my view.)

    I'll stay, as will very many believers, perhaps a majority today, with the overall sense of all the passages, together, all-at-once.

    Not 1 or 2 passages by themselves. All 30 or more passages together simultaneously, all found to be in agreement if eternal life is not given to those humans that perish in the lake of fire. We are not yet like the angels in how they are, having eternal life. Those in heaven will become like the angels (in that way), as scripture tells us, in Christ's own words.
     
  10. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I happen to think that Jesus says what He means and means what He says unless He is using a figure of speech. What did Jesus say about eternal punishment?
    Jesus taught e.g.,

    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    …..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
    In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
    …..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    …..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times, in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
    When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?



     
  11. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    What the Jews before and at the time of Jesus believed about "eternal punishment."
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
    …..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
    "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
    Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

     
  12. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Ah, you're simply not even reading all I wrote in the posts you've been responding to above.

    Ok.

    Maybe another day you'll feel more inclined to consider what I actually wrote (or not...).

    Have a good evening regardless!
     
  13. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Der Alte, the Greek word translated "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 is apollumi. There is a closely related noun in Greek which is apolleia, which means destruction. These two words are used over 30 times in the New Testament to refer to the final fate of the unsaved. So, yes, what Jesus says God can do in Matthew 10:28 is going to actually happen to the unsaved. Jesus was not referencing a mere possibility.
     
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  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill(apokteino) the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy(apollumi) both soul and body in hell.


    I don't know how anyone, regardless who they are, can find it perfectly reasonable that Jesus would make mention that man cannot also kill the soul, and then indicate, neither can God. Totally pointless if true.

    What that adds up to is this.

    What man can do. Kill the body.
    What man cannot do. kill the soul

    What God cannot do. Kill the body.
    What God cannot do. Kill the soul.

    We then end up with one thing man can do that God can't do, kill the body. And we also end up with what man nor God can do, kill the soul.


    IOW----And fear not man which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear God which is not able to kill both soul and body in hell.

    Some will argue, if destroy means kill in this verse, the same Greek word for kill would have been used instead. And since it wasn't, destroy is not meaning to kill here. Can apollumi ever mean to kill, where it is clear it is meaning that? What about the following?

    Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy(apollumi) him.

    How should we understand (apollumi) in this verse if not to kill? Is it wrong to interpret this to mean---for Herod will seek the young child to kill him..? So, why wasn't (apokteino) used here instead if it's meaning to kill? Or should we interpret it to mean this instead----for Herod will seek the young child to torment him..?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  15. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    "Definition. Ash is the powdery residue left when a combustible substance is consumed by fire. Different combustible materials produce different types of ashes. These include coal ash, fly ash, and wood ash. Cremation ashes, also referred to as cremation remains, are the remains of a body after it has been cremated."

    They do not in any way imply eternal punishment nor universalism---either one which implies----eternal life. That is given only to the saved, not one verse says that gift is given to the lost. However, believe what you want, we will all find out in the end. You can argue with God then.
     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    As far as ashes, and that Malachi 4 has been brought up, I wouldn't think anything in that chapter is meaning what happens to someone when cast into the LOF, but is meaning what happens to many on the day of the Lord in the end of this age. I can see something, such as Zechariah 14:12, where that turns someone into ashes. And interestingly enough, both Malachi 4 and Zechariah 14 mention the day of the Lord. But this doesn't mean that one can't be turned into ashes in the LOF eventually. I just don't see Malachi 4 supporting this idea is all.
     
  17. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The year of Sputnik1 I was stationed in Germany. I was a cook, we had civilian workers in the dining facility, known as "mess hall" at that time, and I often had to supervise them. I spoke German and assumed they were German. One of them said to me "You speak good German. We not German we Greek." So I started learning to speak Greek to better communicate with them, not then knowing that 2 decades later I would be studying Greek at the graduate level.
    Some time ago after having this discussion multiple times I did a word study of "apollumi."
    ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. In the BDAG definition below "apollumi" has at least 35 non-eternal meanings e.g. spoiled wine, tarnished gold, lost sheep, spoiled food, falling hair etc.

    ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
    ① to cause or experience destruction
    ⓐ act.ruin, destroy
    α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
    β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
    γ. without obj. J 10:10.
    ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
    α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies; Tat. 21, 2 τοὺς ἀνθρώπους … ἀπόλλυσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
    β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
    to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
    to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
    ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
    ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.



     
  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    All this wasted time and space on a straw man.
    Perhaps you did NOT read or ignored when I said "What God created He certainly can destroy but not one single verse says God has or will destroy a single soul in hell or anywhere else."
     
  19. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    You're still missing the point. The fact God is God, nothing is impossible for Him. I think we all agree with that. That's not where the problem is. The problem has to do with Jesus even making mention of the killing of the soul if no one is planning on ever doing this at any time. So why even bring up the subject to begin with? Why even mention that man is unable to kill the soul if no one is planning on ever doing that? Per your perspective, what point is it that you think Jesus was making here by mentioning that man is unable to kill the soul, when not even God is planning on doing that, though He is capable of doing that if He so desired?
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Ashes are ashes. Whether it takes 10 minutes or 10 days.
     
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