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Ashes in Hell: Do they support conditional immortality, eternal torment, or universalism?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, May 17, 2021.

  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Question/Discussion point: The Bible teaches that the ungodly will be burned up, consumed by fire, and turned to ashes. Which of the three views of hell does this support (1. eternal torment, 2 conditional immortality aka annihilationism 3. universalism)?

    Optional ten minute video: Last week I posted to YouTube a ten minute video on this same topic. The video includes several relevant verses and some helpful information. While you don't have to watch the video to join in the discussion, I think it will help if you do. It will just take 10 minutes. Here it is:



    May God bless this discussion!
     
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  2. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This may sound well, a little presumptuous , but my one dream of hell showed ashes and no eternal fire. But who am I to say I know the answer to that question. Be blessed.
     
  3. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe that God can give people dreams today. Of course, having a dream does not mean that is from God or that it is true. And it could be a mix of truth and our own thoughts. There's nothing at all wrong with sharing about dreams as long as we test their content by God's Word and do not treat our dreams as equal with the Bible (I don't see you making these errors).
     
  4. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    Since the descriptions of torment are metaphorical and meant to describe spiritual things, attributing physical limits to them and postulating off of that is unproductive. As to whether it is eternal torment, I think this is pretty clear:

    "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'" - Mark 9:47-48
     
  5. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I just want to be sure I understand you. Are you saying that you believe that the biblical references to the ungodly being burned up and turned to ashes are not literal?
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    It would be helpful if you would include a chapter and verse for this teaching/reference, so we may examine the actual text(s) you are referring to.
     
  7. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's true! I include the verses in the ten minute video I mention in the OP. But, for those who don't want to spend ten minutes watching it, here is an image from the video that includes a relevant verse:
    View attachment 299282 Slide27.JPG
     
  8. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Here's another image/verse from the video:
    Slide13.JPG
     
  9. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the verses you refer to, I am not convinced that they refer to Perpetual Fire which appears to be the ultimate eternal destiny of the wicked.

    It could be reference to the Day of the Lord or even a future event in history being described metaphorically or maybe the burning up of the created order in preparation for the New Heaven and Earth.

    I am very wary of presentations that result in portraying the Word as contradictory.

    Lastly, spiritual fire is not the same as physical fire.
     
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  10. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Carl, I assure you that I do not think the Bible ever contradicts itself. Nor can I think of anything in the video or this post that I wrote that would imply that.
     
  11. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    pretty obvious the bible teaches - annihilationism (referred to as the 2nd death)

    death is death .... cease to exist ... the second death one ceases to exist for eternity ... God does not torment people in "hell" .... hell is the grave and everyone waits there in a dormant state (knows nothing) ... until Jesus returns .... then the 1st resurrection happens (the saved taken to heaven) .... 1,000 years later the 2nd resurrection occurs (of the lost) the final battle takes place and God destroys all of the lost and they cease to exist forever.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Thx. Very Helpful.

    This may be a result of translator Bias...

    Lets look at a few other translations
    2 Peter 2:6
    (NKJV)
    and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

    (KJV)
    6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

    (YLT)
    6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them];

    Peter is referencing Sodom and Gomorrah, a temporal judgement that came upon a temporal city, and saying it was an example to those would afterward live ungodly...

    I don't believe this verse supports your conclusion that this same physical/temporal judgment will be metered out on the souls of the ungodly dead whos temporal bodies are already dust. Only that it was used as a example for the ungodly living.

    Next, Malachi 4:1 is, again, pictorial of a temporal Judgement metered out upon the Living wicked in that day.

    Souls don't turn into ashes.
    Souls do not have a temperature combustion or boiling point.
    These are Physical manifestations of physical realities.

    The soul has a different fate.
     
  13. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe that the references are referring to final judgment. I think this is true for all the verses mentioned in the video as teaching that the unsaved are burned up, consumed by fire, and turned to ashes, but it seems especially obvious with some of them. Let's look at 2 Peter 2:6 in context:

    6 and if he reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is coming to the ungodly;
    7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, distressed by the depraved behavior of the immoral
    8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day by day, his righteous soul was tormented by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
    9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
    10 especially those who follow the polluting desires of the flesh and despise authority. Bold, arrogant people! They are not afraid to slander the glorious ones;
    11 however, angels, who are greater in might and power, do not bring a slanderous charge against them before the Lord.
    12 But these people, like irrational animals-- creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed-- slander what they do not understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed.
    13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in broad daylight. They are spots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptions while they feast with you.
    14 They have eyes full of adultery that never stop looking for sin. They seduce unstable people and have hearts trained in greed. Children under a curse!
    15 They have gone astray by abandoning the straight path and have followed the path of Balaam, the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of wickedness
    16 but received a rebuke for his lawlessness: A speechless donkey spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
    17 These people are springs without water, mists driven by a storm. The gloom of darkness has been reserved for them.
    18 For by uttering boastful, empty words, they seduce, with fleshly desires and debauchery, people who have barely escaped from those who live in error. (2 Pet. 2:6-18 CSB17)​

    This is going to happen "on the day of judgment." Peter seems to include people who, even in his own lifetime, were seducing (or attempting to seduce) Christian into error. But there is no reason to think that those people were burned to ashes in this current age. It fits best to see them as being burned to ashes at the final judgment.
     
  14. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Where's the Motivation then for an atheist to reject atheism in favor of Christianity?
    The atheist will say:
    "I didn't exist for eons before I was born and it didn't bother me one bit.
    Not existing again for eons will have no appreciable Punitive effect on me that wasn't already on me before I was born. I'd just be returning to from whence I came. Full circle. Cycle complete."


    That seems to be the belief atheists share anyway, no?
     
  15. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But don't you believe that the ungodly will be resurrected to face judgment? Don't you believe that they will stand before God at the final judgment in resurrected, physical bodies?
     
  16. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good question!

    There is a very important difference between the doctrine of conditional immortality and the view of the atheist.

    The atheist believes that all people, regardless of how they live or what they believe, will completely and permanently perish upon death and that they will never again be conscious.

    Conditionalists like myself believe that:
    1. Some people (those who through faith in Jesus are saved by God's grace) will be given the gift of eternal life and will live forever with perfect joy unalloyed by grief, sorrow, fear, or anxiety.
    2. Others (the ungodly) will be raised to face a terrifying judgment, will be weeping and gnashing their teeth at that judgment, and then will be completely destroyed.

    On judgment day, no former atheist will think it does not matter or that it is no big deal that they are now in group #2.
     
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  17. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you really believe that in hell, at the final judgment, the soul will have a different fate from the body?
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I believe what Paul Believes:

    1 Corinthians 15:44
    It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    You disagree with Paul?
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, if the end result is "not existing" either way, (either without being tortured for a time, or after being tortured for a time) I'm not sure you'll have much success convincing the atheist he should not be an atheist so he can avoid a short term period of torture that he'll never remember going through during his future eternity of not being conscious.

    I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep.

    I realize that may not be in the cards for me and I may endure torturous pain that leads to my death.

    My reward in the next life helps me understand the pain is only temporary and I'll be free from it.

    Atheists see their reward as the "freedom" of extinguishment.
    Conditionalists aren't robbing them of that at all.

    In fact, from my perspective, Conditionalists are saying there is an escape from the bondage of Sin APART from Belief on Jesus Salvific work on the Cross.

    Extinguished Souls have been effectively FREED from the Bondage of Sin.

    Scripture teaches the opposite of this.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2021
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Are you referring to Malachi 4:3?
    Malachi 3:17-18
    17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
    18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
    Malachi 4:1-6
    1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
    5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
    6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
    This does not say that the unrighteous will be ashes in heaven or hell.
    This is what happens in one day, in this world, when God brings judgement

     
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