Ash Wednesday/Lent >Pagan origins, against Christ's command.

[New Legacy]

Still curious to see a reference to the practice any earlier than Aelfric, the peicing together of Athanasius with the gregorian sacramentary is not much different than my attempt between Adam of Bremen and the other nordic references.

The sacramentary proves you are wrong, period. Does not need to be pieced together with anything, not sure what that means.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Lol you've asserted your speculation, as i mentioned the earliest record of the celebration was Aelfric.

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate from primary source documentation and archeological data that Ash Wednesday is derived from pagan Nordic practice.

 

[New Legacy]

I believe it was Gregory the great who incorporated wednesday into the lent season, NOT talking about the day rather the practice and title used as ash wednesday.

You read my post wrong. Gregory removed Sunday from Lent, making Lent begin on Wednesday and established the practiced of using ashes in reference to the Old Testament.

 

[New Legacy]

It is the first the celebration is recorded..
Not sure how you can say baloney and then not offer some form of refutation???

It was described in liturgy books before the Nordics converted.

 

[simonthezealot]

You read my post wrong. Gregory removed Sunday from Lent, making Lent begin on Wednesday and established the practiced of using ashes in reference to the Old Testament.

You'll not be able to show any record of Gregory establishing the practice of ashes regarding the Wednesday he added to lent.

In fact the earliest you will actually see a record of this is multiple centuries after Gregory when Aelfric records it.

 

[simonthezealot]

It was described in liturgy books before the Nordics converted.

Adding the Wednesday is recorded in the gregorian sacrametary, not the practice of ashes though.

 

[simonthezealot]

You should repent for your religious discrimination against those not like you. Discrimination comes from ignorance and pride

Would you say the same to the Christ?
Seems He showed some discrimination here, was he being ignorant and prideful?
... Just sayin'

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,a and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbib by others. 8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.c 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.d 15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of helle as yourselves.

16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.

23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

 

[Standing Up]

You'll not be able to show any record of Gregory establishing the practice of ashes regarding the Wednesday he added to lent.

In fact the earliest you will actually see a record of this is multiple centuries after Gregory when Aelfric records it.

That's the sole issue remaining.

 

[sunlover1]

The whole of his post, h e says Ash Wednesday is pagan there by insinuating that those of us who observe such are pagan and hell bound. He should apologetic but he won't and the powers that be do not seem to want to do anything.

Should they follow you around when you tell me that only YOUR
church is the TRUE church, as well?
If something has pagan roots, Christmas, Easter etc. it's "mean" to
discuss it?
I think it's "mean" for your bunch to act like my religion is less than.

The rules say that someone is not suppose to make the others time here uncomfortable. Yet the OP did that with idea that Christians practice paganism. Yes, I take this very personally because I observe orthodox Christianity and I do not like the insinuation that I am pagan by my practices.

He's not insinuating that YOU"RE pagan.
That's your own heart that's condemning you.

If your heart condemns you , then what?
Then remember that God is greater than your heart.
Guard your own heart.

The OP never wanted the truth, he just wanted to accuse from his first post.

I don't know his heart.

But I do know that if I make a thread about closed communion,
it's not to accuse you.
It's to EXPOSE darkness, that we might all be blessed.
Sometimes love hurts.
But one day, we will all stand before OUR God,
and He WILL ask why you didn't feel that my love
for Him was "enough" to include me, or why you
didn't feel that my love for Him was "enough" to
call me part of HIS church.

Making someone's visit here unpleasant, means to
harass them, mock them and accuse them.
I think it's Simon actually that's been flamed here.

GT seems to be a "good old boys" club nowdays.
If you're not "HIGH CHURCH" don't apply.

Some folks are going to have a rude awakening
in the sweet by and by.

 

[tadoflamb]

Would you say the same to the Christ?
Seems He showed some discrimination here, was he being ignorant and prideful?
... Just sayin'

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,a and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbib by others. 8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.c 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.d 15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of helle as yourselves.

16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.

23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Thanks for all that, Simon. I've been meditating on those verses since you started this thread, as they remind me of you. I mean, you're all puffed up by your righteousness, you're awfully proud of your knowledge of the bible and early Christian history and you're condemning those who practice Lent and Ash Wednesday. And before you protest any further, you're the one who called satan the father of false religion and since paganism is a false religion, what other conclusion can those who practice Lent and observe Ash Wednesday come to? Your very OP accuses us of satanical practices.

However, those verses couldn't be speaking of you as line 2-3 reads thus:

“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

This indicates the Pharisees had an authentic authority to teach, something you don't have. I don't have to do what you tell me, and with your little logical jump that ash trees equals ashes on the forehead that turns out to be a very good thing.

 

[sonshine234]

He's not insinuating that YOU"RE pagan.
.

Yes he is also he is calling all Christians who observe Ash Wednesday and lent pagans and nothing anyone says will change my mind. Only a full apology from him will heal the hurt that he has caused, it says in the rules that we are not to make others time here miserable and he has done that breaking the rules quite often in third thread.

If someone wanted to knopw they would ask questions not coming out accusing as her did in the OP being puffed up with pride that he knowes better than anyone else.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Should they follow you around when you tell me that only YOUR
church is the TRUE church, as well?
If something has pagan roots, Christmas, Easter etc. it's "mean" to
discuss it?
I think it's "mean" for your bunch to act like my religion is less than.



He's not insinuating that YOU"RE pagan.
That's your own heart that's condemning you.

If your heart condemns you , then what?
Then remember that God is greater than your heart.
Guard your own heart.


I don't know his heart.

But I do know that if I make a thread about closed communion,
it's not to accuse you.
It's to EXPOSE darkness, that we might all be blessed.
Sometimes love hurts.
But one day, we will all stand before OUR God,
and He WILL ask why you didn't feel that my love
for Him was "enough" to include me, or why you
didn't feel that my love for Him was "enough" to
call me part of HIS church.

Making someone's visit here unpleasant, means to
harass them, mock them and accuse them.
I think it's Simon actually that's been flamed here.

GT seems to be a "good old boys" club nowdays.
If you're not "HIGH CHURCH" don't apply.

Some folks are going to have a rude awakening
in the sweet by and by.

Sunlover, I just wanted to say that we all probably believe that our Church is the only true Church. If there are many, how can we possibly discern the truth-there are so many differing opinions?
Here's what we know:
There is only one Truth. (If there are many perspectives, it's not essential truth)
Christ instituted one Church, not many.
Christ prayed to His Father for unity (John 17).
Christ left his apostles with the authority to spread His Truth.
He gave them the Holy Spirit to guide them from teaching error.
He said the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church-meaning that there would be protection from error.

Christ also left us with the fact that, if we teach something that's not Truth, we're liable. So if we believe it's Truth, that's the only thing we can teach. It is possible to teach error, but not know it's error, and not be liable. This happens a lot. Catholics say that every religion on earth has some truth to them. Yes, even Muslims, even JW, even Buddhist, and so on. There is only one Church, we believe, which has the entire truth. That's not dependent on having some bad people in the church (Pope Alexander, for example)), or doing something bad in the name of it (like the Crusades, Inquisition, sex-abuse scandals, and so on). It's about the faith and morals we practice.

It's mean to hurl epithets like "PAGAN" at people. If they did a pagan practice for pagan reasons, then it's pagan. If they did a pagan practice for innocent reasons (like burning candles, for example), it's not a pagan practice. Lots of people I know practice yoga. I don't know that they adhere to it as a religious practice, but as a form of exercise. It is pretty pagan in origin, but it's not for us to judge. And I think that's our point. It's not for us to judge.

 

[Standing Up]

Yes he is also he is calling all Christians who observe Ash Wednesday and lent pagans and nothing anyone says will change my mind. Only a full apology from him will heal the hurt that he has caused, it says in the rules that we are not to make others time here miserable and he has done that breaking the rules quite often in third thread.

If someone wanted to knopw they would ask questions not coming out accusing as her did in the OP being puffed up with pride that he knowes better than anyone else.

Read the OP again.

OP---

Ash Wednesday/Lent >Pagan origins, against Christ's command.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ash Wednesday is only around 1,000 years in practice and it's origins are from that of the Nordic pagan religion.

the Christ tells us to wash our face when fasting not run around with forehead's marked with ashes for the world to see...

But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

 

[simonthezealot]

Thanks for all that, Simon. I've been meditating on those verses since you started this thread, as they remind me of you. I mean, you're all puffed up by your righteousness, you're awfully proud of your knowledge of the bible and early Christian history and you're condemning those who practice Lent and Ash Wednesday. And before you protest any further, you're the one who called satan the father of false religion and since paganism is a false religion, what other conclusion can those who practice Lent and observe Ash Wednesday come to? Your very OP accuses us of satanical practices.

The accusations continue, again bearing false witness with the accusation of the sin of pride, as well as falsely accusing me of condemning people which I have NOT.

 

[simonthezealot]

That's the sole issue remaining.

i've been pouring through hemskrila (odin's war) as I know it gave better details to the ash reference, i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism and their "tripundra" which is burning cow dung and using the ash to mark their foreheads in a symbollic way this dates back to the 8th century but the link between the three is proving much harder than anticipated.

 

[simonthezealot]

(snip)And before you protest any further, you're the one who called satan the father of false religion (snip)

ahh NO the bible does.

 

[prodromos]

i've been pouring through hemskrila (odin's war) as I know it gave better details to the ash reference, i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism and their "tripundra" which is burning cow dung and using the ash to mark their foreheads in a symbollic way this dates back to the 8th century but the link between the three is proving much harder than anticipated.

Yup, Hislop's 'methodology' to a T.

 

[simonthezealot]

Not a one of you pro-ash wednesday folk can leave the personal assertions aside, what's with ya all?

 

[Root of Jesse]

i've been pouring through hemskrila (odin's war) as I know it gave better details to the ash reference, i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism and their "tripundra" which is burning cow dung and using the ash to mark their foreheads in a symbollic way this dates back to the 8th century but the link between the three is proving much harder than anticipated.

Ya know, where (and when) wood is scarce, many people burn animal dung. Especially cow patties and such, because they contain straw.

Conversely, at Palm Sunday, the Church uses Palms, which is scriptural, to mark the triumphal procession of Christ into Jerusalem. It's those dried palms (which were blessed at Palm Sunday) which are used for the ash. So it's not about picking up cow poo and making ashes so we can mark ourselves. I'm restraining myself from using the I word here...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not a one of you pro-ash wednesday folk can leave the personal assertions aside, what's with ya all?

Pot, meet kettle.