Ash Wednesday/Lent >Pagan origins, against Christ's command.

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prodromos

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Primary source?

You want me to pull up an online copy of a 7th Century sacramentary? Do you read Latin?

I do not find your request to be very sincere. Why not just make your point?
I don't understand why you would question his motives. I too would like to see some primary evidence if only to quash the pagan origin claims once and for all. I don't expect it would be readily available so I'm not holding my breath, nor does it worry me since a strong defence is not really required in the face of simonthezealot's claims so far. He hasn't bothered to provide any primary evidence so I don't see why we should make any more effort than he has.
 
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Standing Up

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I don't understand why you would question his motives. I too would like to see some primary evidence if only to quash the pagan origin claims once and for all. I don't expect it would be readily available so I'm not holding my breath, nor does it worry me since a strong defence is not really required in the face of simonthezealot's claims so far. He hasn't bothered to provide any primary evidence so I don't see why we should make any more effort than he has.

Athanasius was already quoted (c350ad). In Canon V of Nicea (325ad), there's a reference to Lent.

" And let these synods [to consider "fallen" bishops or laity] be held, the one before Lent, (that the pure Gift may be offered to God after all bitterness has been put away), and let the second be held about autumn. "
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Nothing so far about the origins of Ash Wednesday.
 
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New Legacy

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I don't understand why you would question his motives. I too would like to see some primary evidence if only to quash the pagan origin claims once and for all. I don't expect it would be readily available so I'm not holding my breath, nor does it worry me since a strong defence is not really required in the face of simonthezealot's claims so far. He hasn't bothered to provide any primary evidence so I don't see why we should make any more effort than he has.

A primary source would mean the 7th Century Roman sacramentary available online in Latin. If you or he read Latin, then I'll bother to try and find it, otherwise I will question why he is asking for it.
 
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About 100 years later c435ad, Socrates Scholasticus wrote this:

The fasts before Easter will be found to be differently observed among different people. Those at Rome fast three successive weeks before Easter, excepting Saturdays and Sundays.784

784 Baronius (Ann. 57 and 391 a.d.) finds two mistakes here: first, in the assertion that the Romans fasted three weeks only before Easter, and second, in the assertion that during those three weeks Saturdays were excepted. Cf. also Ceillier, Hist. des Auteurs Sacrés et Ecclesiast. Vol. VIII. p. 523, 524. Valesius, however, quotes Pope Leo (fourth sermon on the Lent Fast) and Venerable Beda to prove that Socrates’ assertion concerning the exception of Saturday may be defended. See Quesnell, de Jejunio Sabbati; Bingham, Origin. Eccl. XXI. I. 14; also Beveridge, de Jejunio Quadragesimali.​

Those in Illyrica and all over Greece and Alexandria observe a fast of six weeks, which they term ‘The forty days’ fast.’785785 Τεσσαρακοστή = Lent; the Latin equivalent is, of course, Quadragesima. Others commencing their fast from the seventh week before Easter, and fasting three five days only, and that at intervals, yet call that time ‘The forty days’ fast.’ It is indeed surprising to me that thus differing in the number of days, they should both give it one common appellation; but some assign one reason for it, and others another, according to their several fancies. One can see also a disagreement about the manner of abstinence from food, as well as about the number of days. Some wholly abstain from things that have life: others feed on fish only of all living creatures: many together with fish, eat fowl also, saying that according to Moses,786 these were likewise made out of the waters. Some abstain from eggs, and all kinds of fruits: others partake of dry bread only; still others eat not even this: while others having fasted till the ninth hour, afterwards take any sort of food without distinction. And among various nations there are other usages, for which innumerable reasons are assigned. Since however no one can produce a written command as an authority, it is evident that the apostles left each one to his own free will in the matter, to the end that each might perform what is good not by constraint or necessity. Such is the difference in the churches on the subject of fasts.
NPNF2-02. Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

So again, it's clear there were fasting periods before pascha. This fast controversy was also referenced as early as 155ad with Polycarp visit Anicetus.

But still nothing at this stage regarding an ash Wednesday.
 
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Here's the reference to Polycarp and the fast.

For the controversy is not merely as regards the day, but also as regards the form itself of the fast.4801

4801 According to Harvey, the early paschal controversy resolved itself into two particulars: (a) as regards the precise day on which our Lord’s resurrection should be celebrated; (b) as regards the custom of the fast preceding it.​

For some consider themselves bound to fast one day, others two days, others still more, while others [do so during] forty: the diurnal and the nocturnal hours they measure out together as their [fasting] day. And this variety among the observers [of the fasts] had not its origin in our time, but long before in that of our predecessors, some of whom probably, being not very accurate in their observance of it, handed down to posterity the custom as it had, through simplicity or private fancy, been [introduced among them]. And yet nevertheless all these lived in peace one with another, and we also keep peace together. Thus, in fact, the difference [in observing] the fast establishes the harmony of [our common] faith. And the presbyters preceding Soter in the government of the Church which thou dost now rule—I mean, Anicetus and Pius, Hyginus and Telesphorus, and Sixtus—did neither themselves observe it [after that fashion], nor permit those with them to do so.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

It's interesting to note that, according to Irenaeus, Rome originally did not observe or permit a fast prior to Passover. Sixtus ruled c110ad and Victor (to whom Irenaeus was writing) was c195ad. So, somewhere between 195ad and 325ad (Nicea, mentioned above), Rome began a 40-day fast type period.
 
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I already pointed out Ash Wednesday came about in 601 when Pope Gregory declared Sundays to be feasts, thus putting them outside of Lent (not counted as one of the 40 days) and changing the beginning to Wednesday.

Athanasius c350ad was shown to originate (first mention) the Wednesday start of a 40 day period sans Sabbaths to easter sunday. Gregory may have wanted Rome to line up with that.

Still, however, there is no reference to an ASH Wednesday.
 
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SolomonVII

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So, from looking into the Ash Wednesday issue, it seems that EO practice Lent, but not Ash Wednesday. Why not?
I think for EO, Sundays are included in the Lent observation. The count of 40+6 Sundays are required to bring it to a Wednesday.
40 days would bring it to a Tuesday for Eastern Orthodox.
It is just a question of a different mathematical formula being used.

The significance is not the day of the week. The significance is the start of Lent.It happens to be on a Wednesday when the formula is 40+6. If, some half a millenium later, Wednesday happens to have some significance for newly Christianized Nordic tribes, so what? The day of the week was always coincidental to the start of the liturgical event.
EO does not have Mardi Gras either, nor do many Western cultures that are not French. The significance is that the Tuesday is the last day before the time of fasting and penance begins, so many people opt to overindulge on that Tuesday.

There was always a lot of independence between the different branches of Christianity. There were different calendars, different cultures and languages, different names for the days of the week, even different names given to significant days of the Liturgical calendars that otherwise would be demarcating the same religious event.
EO has always been rather less innovative than the West when it comes to instituting new rituals, or in this case, old rituals in newer ways.
 
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From Schaff:

The Easter festival proper was preceded by a forty days’ season of repentance and fasting, called Quadragesima, at least as early as the year 325; for the council of Nice presupposes the existence of this season.733 This fast was an imitation of the forty days’ fasting of Jesus in the wilderness, which itself was put in typical connection with the forty days’ fasting of Moses734 and Elijah,735 and the forty years’ wandering of Israel through the desert. At first a free-will act, it gradually assumed the character of a fixed custom and ordinance of the church. Respecting the length of the season much difference prevailed, until Gregory I. (590–604) fixed the Wednesday of the sixth week before Easter, Ash Wednesday as it is called,736 as the beginning of it. On this day the priests and the people sprinkled themselves with dust and ashes, in token of their perishableness and their repentance, with the words: “Remember, O man, that dust thou art, and unto dust thou must return; repent, that thou mayest inherit eternal life.”
NPNF2-02. Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Still not sure whether the ash part was or was not extant in Gregory's time. Would have to see what he specifically says.

Gregory did, as mentioned, standardize the Lenten practice, moving from free-will to a fixed law.
 
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SolomonVII

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Athanasius c350ad was shown to originate (first mention) the Wednesday start of a 40 day period sans Sabbaths to easter sunday. Gregory may have wanted Rome to line up with that.

Still, however, there is no reference to an ASH Wednesday.

The practice of using ashes for the penitent on the first day of Lent started at a much later date.
 
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New Legacy

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Athanasius c350ad was shown to originate (first mention) the Wednesday start of a 40 day period sans Sabbaths to easter sunday. Gregory may have wanted Rome to line up with that.

Still, however, there is no reference to an ASH Wednesday.

What?
 
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The East originally excluded Saturdays and Sundays.

From the paper handed out Sunday concerning fasting, Saturdays and Sundays were strictly excluded from fasting during Lent. Saturday and Sunday, even the most strict ascetics would partake in foods cooked with oil (one of the three major foods abstained from during Lent in Orthodox). The reason for this is that Saturday was a day of rest (from the Jewish Sabbath) and Sunday was a celebration of the Resurrection. Since fasting was both a work and a sign of mourning, it was not fit to Fast on the Weekend. One does not mourn when he celebrates, nor does he work when he rests.

The only exception to this rule, if we were to be strict rules-centric people (I'm not as rules-centric as some Orthodox, as rules are nothing without the Spirit, prayer, and humility), is on Great and Holy Saturday. As Christ lays in the tomb, we mourn His death, which He willingly died. But we end the Mourning at Midnight, when we begin to celebrate the Resurrection. Some Churches follow the Midnight service with a Feast for Pascha, while others might postpone the Feast until after Agape Vespers the following day.

Fasting is always a preparation for a Feast. We are to prepare our hearts and minds by subjecting our body to obedience. True Obedience to Christ's commands and virtues will beget humility, and humility will beget Christ-likeness. The problem is when people forget the TRUE part.
 
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prodromos

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A primary source would mean the 7th Century Roman sacramentary available online in Latin. If you or he read Latin, then I'll bother to try and find it, otherwise I will question why he is asking for it.
I'm assuming there is a Latin equivalent to the Thesaurus Lingua Graeca. Maybe the Perseus Project has them available? I'll have a look when I get home. I'm also happy to accept reputable translations as a 'primary' source. I'm an armchair researcher after all, so my requirements are not so strict :)
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Primary source?

You want me to pull up an online copy of a 7th Century sacramentary? Do you read Latin?

I do not find your request to be very sincere. Why not just make your point?

Of course it's sincere. I'm holding you to the same standard we're all trying to hold simon to. And a translation would be fine- but if we're not going to take his word for it, I think you owe it to the thread- and yourself- to post primary source documentation of your claim.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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A primary source would mean the 7th Century Roman sacramentary available online in Latin. If you or he read Latin, then I'll bother to try and find it, otherwise I will question why he is asking for it.

Primary source documentation is not required in the original language. That's only true in the highest levels of scholarly discourse.

In any case, my wife reads Latin and I'm learning.
 
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