• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

As man is...God once was. As God is, man may become.

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Aeon, Jul 15, 2002.

  1. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    Louis, Okay well you can lable me what you want. If my beliefs fall under a certain stereotype, oh well. I don't think it matters. When we go to God to be judged He isn't going to have us lined up with conformity to our religion.
     
  2. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +148
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Libertarian


    What god is going to judge you Aeon? Elohim? Joseph Smith? Jesus Christ? Or one of the past mormons who has died and has been made a god? :confused:


    What happens to Satan/Lucifer, who is Jesus' brother? :eek: What about black people, where did they come from?

    How did Joseph Smith carry those big gold plates all by himself? How did he read the ancient Egyptian writting on those gold plates? Why isn't there any historical or archeological evidence that supports the claims of the events that took place within The Book of Mormon? :scratch:


    The LDS/Mormon beleif does not hold under scrutiny, out of love I ask that you reconsider your Mormon beliefs for one day you (and I) will stand before the True God.


    May God's Grace be with you.
     
  3. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

    +617
    Methodist
    Single
    <Admin Hat on>

    While LouisBooth did bring the message to those who have voiced their personal opinions about whether they are considered Christians or not...be aware that it is not just his decision in cases like this. It is the consensus of the entire staff. Please refer to the rules of the forum in regards to Christian-only forums:

    If you have any questions about this...please take them up privately with any member of the staff. Do not bring them into a current discussion or start up a new discussion. Thanks. :)

    <Admin Hat off>
     
  4. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    Whoa Jes, haha at ease. Here is a few answers that might satisfy your questions.
    The chemicals that run through my brain, bring me to one reality.
    When the question comes to my mind, who is God, my reality responds, God the Father. When I wonder who is my savior. Jesus the Christ.
    Thanks for your opinions about the Book of Mormon. Now all I do is invite you to read it. And ask God if it is true. If He responds I think all the other questions are banished into insignificance. I could care less how much the plates weighed and how he carried them. The question about black skin, well I suppose you have heard other "mormon" ideas. My reality right now doesn't think that the answer is important to my salvation. If Joseph was a prophet he could translate stuff dude.

    you said
    "The LDS/Mormon beleif does not hold under scrutiny, out of love I ask that you reconsider your Mormon beliefs for one day you (and I) will stand before the True God."
    Under whose scrutiny? Yours. And that is right, we will stand before God, and before you start judging me pal, lets wait untill we meet in His light. Not the light reflecting on your face from your monitor.
     
  5. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    Oh and where do you think Satan came from hehe? Respond in Lucifer: fallen angel or King
     
  6. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    Oh man, i feel bad now, sorry I think I got a little upset. SORRY!!!
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Okay you were warned.
     
  8. AngelAmidala

    AngelAmidala Legend

    +617
    Methodist
    Single
    I'm moving this thread to Spirituality, Religion, and Ethics.

    There the discussion can continue without anyone having to break any Chrisitan Forums rules. :)
     
  9. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +148
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Libertarian

    Where in the Bible are we told to pray over a book to find if it is good? My Bible says I should compare other things, such as the Book of Mormons, to scripture. So what foundation do you have to pray whether or not a book is good?


    No just foundational Mormon doctrines. Many have been changed over the years. ;)

    No not mine, but scholars. Also have you checked into that history thing? Could you list some historical or archeological proofs to the events in the Book of Mormon?

    Aeon, I am told in Scripture to test teachings and doctrines against Scripture. If you feel that questioning the LDS/Mormon doctrines is judging you then you must deal with that. You opened a thread about one of the Mormon doctrines and know we are discussing them. :)
     
  10. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +148
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Book of Mormon vs. The Bible (or common sense)
    by Marian Bodine

    “. . .If we compare the historical, prophetical, and doctrinal parts of the Book of Mormon with the great truths of science and nature, we find no contradictions–no absurdities–nothing unreasonable.” Talmage’s Articles of Faith, page 505

    1. Compare I Nephi 1:2 with Nehemiah 13: 23-27. The Egyptian language was a very corrupt language from idol worshiping people who had persecuted the Children of Israel as Hitler did the Jews during World War II. No Prophet of God would have ever used a corrupt language to convey God’s message at this point in history. See the above quote from Nehemiah as to that prophet’s reaction to a mixed language.

    2. The Book of Mormon speaks clearly that it was not inspired by God when you compare it with what God has already said about inspiration. I Nephi 1:3; 19:4-6: II Nephi 11:1; 25:7; 33:1; Mormon 1:2-6; Jacob 7:26-27, contrasted to Deuteronomy 4:2; 1 Corinthians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:20-21.

    3. I Nephi 2:5, Sam is a Yankee name, Samuel would have been a Jewish name.

    4. I Nephi 2:8. There is no river in all of Arabia now or ever in recorded history, and no river which empties into the Red Sea!

    5. I Nephi 5:14. How could a devout Jew not know what tribe he was from until he saw the “plates?”

    6. I Nephi 8:4, “Methought,” an Elizabethan English poetic word.

    7. I Nephi 10:8, exact quote from John 1:27. (An example of plagiarism.)

    8. I Nephi 10:11, “Holy Ghost” is a King Jamesism and was not known in 600 B.C.

    9. I Nephi 10:17, “Faith on the Son of God.” A term never used by an Old Testament Prophet, keeping in mind that was allegedly written between 600-592 B.C. The Messiah, who would be King and Deliverer was expected but not, the Son of God.

    10. I Nephi 10:18, “same yesterday and forever”; a quote from Hebrews 13:8, 600 years before it was written.

    11. I Nephi 11:21, “Lamb of God,” strictly New Testament language. Compare with John 1:20.

    12. I Nephi 11:27, baptism of Jesus–John 1:29-34. The one who wrote the Book of Mormon had read much of the New Testament.

    14. I Nephi 13:23, why the explanation to Nephi when they had these “plates” containing this information all the time (cf. 5:11,16)?

    15. I Nephi 16:18, bows of steel? “Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Nuggets of native copper were used in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.” (National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution)

    16. I Nephi 16: 28,29, faith given to the “ball.” Does God ask us to have faith in anything but Him?

    17. I Nephi 21 and 22, copied from Isaiah 49, 50 (another example of plagiarism).

    18. II Nephi 4:17, “O wretched man that I am,” exact quote from Romans 7:24 by the Apostle Paul, 600 years before he was born?

    19. II Nephi 1:3, “land of promise” for the Jew was the land of Canaan. See Genesis 13:14-18.

    20. II Nephi 4:21, the love of God causes his flesh to be consumed?

    21. II Nephi 5:21, black is not beautiful!

    22. II Nephi 5:23, don’t marry a Lamanite or you will be cursed. Mormons tell us that the Lamanites are the American Indians.

    23. II Nephi 6-8, compare with Isaiah 50-51. (Example of plagiarism.)

    24. II Nephi 10:7, a false prophecy. The Jews are back in their own land, only in unbelief. Compare with Deuteronomy 18:20-22.

    25. II Nephi 12-24 are Isaiah 2-14. (Example of plagiarism.)

    26. II Nephi 13 compare with Isaiah 3. (Example of plagiarism.)

    27. II Nephi 25:19, “Christ” was not His last name. Christ means “The Anointed One” or the Messiah. The name “Jesus” was not foretold in Old Testament times. Check Isaiah 9:6. The first time the name was mentioned was when Gabriel told Mary as recorded in Luke 1:31, “and shalt call his name JESUS.”

    28. The Book of Mormon is purported to be “a second witness to the Bible.” Who needs the kind of witness that condemns? See II Nephi 29.

    29. II Nephi 28:8-9, seem to condemn Mormonism’s doctrine of repentance after death.

    30. II Nephi 29:11-13, God dealt only with the Children of Israel and commanded them speak in His name in Old Testament times. In the New Testament, John 12:47,48, Jesus tells us we are to be judged in that last days by the the things He has spoken.

    31. Jacob 2:23-3:12, condemns polygamy, see Doctrine and Covenants 132.

    32. Jacob 7:27, “Adieu,” French in 544 B.C.?

    33. Mosiah 2:3, “. . .offer sacrifice and burnt offering according to the law of Moses.” The Book of Mormon “Nephites” and “Lamanites” were from the tribe of Manasseh, (Alma 10:3). No Manassite could give attendance at the altar according to the law of Moses. Exodus 28-31; Numbers 3:7; Nehemiah 7:63,65; Hebrews 7:12-14 tells us only the tribe of Levi and particularly the Sons of Aaron could give attendance at the altar.

    34. Alma 7:10 Jesus born at Jerusalem? See Micah 5:2; Luke 2:4. The Mormon argument is that “Jerusalem” referred to the general vicinity, but in I Nephi 1:3 it is called a “city.”

    35. Alma is supposed to be a prophet of God and of Jewish ancestry. Alma in Hebrew means a betrothed virgin. Hardly a fitting name for a man.

    36. Alma 46:15, “Christian” in 73 B.C., contradicted by Luke in Acts 11:26.

    37. Alma 44:12-16, the bad guy gets scalped and suffers nothing but anger, causing him to fight more powerfully afterward. Incredible!

    38. Ether 1:34-37, the language of the Jaredites not confounded at the Tower of Babel, contradicts Genesis 11:9.

    39. Ether 1:43, the Jaredites are promised by the God of the Book of Mormon to be the greatest nation on earth, and that there would be no greater nation. However, in the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 15:1-5; 17:1-9, 19; 18:17,18; Romans 2:2) this promise is made. The seed of Abraham is still with us and the Messiah came through that lineage. The Jaredites destroyed each other and within a few generations ceased to exist.

    40. Throughout Ether chapter 2, we find the God of the Book of Mormon needs to be given instructions and corrections, for his instructions are foolish. See Job 38-40, for God’s reaction to anyone who might try to instruct Him.

    41. Ether 3:9-13, 19, redeemed from the fall because the brother saw the finger of the Lord. Compare Hebrews 9:11-15, 22. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. See also Abel’s offering (Genesis 3:7).

    42. Ether 15:30,31, Shiz struggles for breath after his head was cut off.

    43. IV Nephi 6, 57 words are used to say 59 years had passed away.

    The question should be asked:

    “HOW MANY LIES DO YOU HAVE TO FIND IN A BOOK TO KNOW IT IS NOT FROM GOD?”








    CRI, P.O. Box 7000, Rancho Santa Margarita, CA 92688

    Phone (949) 858-6100 and Fax (949) 858-6111
     
  11. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    I've read the Book of Mormon. I've read the Pearl of Great Price. I've read the Doctrines and Covenants.

    MANY of the present-day teachings of the LDS church contradict BoM. Through the years, the teachings have even contradicted each other.

    I know many Mormons. They are very decent, upright, honest people. But I really have problems with what they believe. And I have done enough personal research that I feel I do understand just what it IS they believe. And it breaks my heart.

    One of the biggest difficulties I have with the LDS faith is this secondary "ministry" by Jesus Christ, from when He Ascended in Palestine, and then He supposedly made a detour to the Nephites who lived here on the American continent. If indeed Jesus was creating a "back-up" system in case His original church failed, does that not mean He couldn't have been the true Son of God? Remember, Jesus PROMISED Peter that the gates of the netherworld would not prevail against His Church. If the Church apostasized, as the Mormon Church teaches, then Jesus lied?

    If Jesus DIDN'T lie, if it was through some human failing that His Church failed, then why did He even BOTHER with the Palestine ministry?

    The God I believe in doesn't lie. And He is so great, so powerful, so omnipotent, that He established a Church that indeed, the gates of the netherworld have not prevailed against it.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  12. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    To be sincere, I agree with you guys, like 99.9%. There is a lot of interesting little perceptions that we can look through, that make it look like, simply, it can't be true. All the intelectual senses that slave to come up with all the little qwerks and "contradictions" aren't really how I look at things. But I believe they are there. I won't deny that. I have read tons of literature, anti-mormon, and I also talk with people about it in person. As a human being, I can find my own contradictions, and things that I don't like, but I don't hang onto things like that.
    I hang onto my hope.
    My faith.
    My personal desire.

    The apostasy, occured, and is still occuring. It can happen on a personal level or on an even greater level. Any time somebody rejects the Truth. That is what I believe happened with Christ's church. At first, started the persecution and they finally just offed all the apostles and tons of members. The church wasn't guided by revelation from apostles and prophets, and only the scriptures were left. Man started interpretting. Churches started blooming like flowers. But Chist's church, if anything was only rejected, not destroyed. I don't believe hell can prevail against it either.

    Jes sorry, I don't have the time to bust out any kind of defense archealogical or, well any other kind. The Book testifies for itself. Personally I find it pleasing to read and I learn lots of things about the Savior. If you want facts, proof or whatever. There are pages dedicated to apologetics, and I am sure you are already aware of that cause you knew where to go exactly to Cut and Paste all the criticism.
     
  13. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    Jes, also I don't think its like, required to have to pray and ask God about the Book. Our intelect is pretty good at helping us learn. But...


    as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed• them unto us by his Spirit•: for the Spirit• searcheth• all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth• no man, but• the Spirit of God.

    12 Now we have received, not the spirit• of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    1 corinthians 2:9-12

    It was God revealing himself to prophets, to people, to whoever, that initiated well, everything. Before there were books, there was just the word of God revealed directly to the person that recieved it. Be it adam or the last person who has ever felt the Spirit or recieved a "revelation" from God. First, I am not saying like a blanket statement, I am talking personally, I have to trust that God can communicate with me. To help me when the answer isn't written in a book. And can't be given to me by a human, be it friend, parent, vagabond. God gives answers. And He's given many about the Book of Mormon. He gave me an answer.

    Now its just in the person to believe what they felt right??

    I believe =)
     
  14. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +148
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Libertarian

    You are right Aeon, the Book of Mormon testifies of itself because it has nothing else to stand on ;) The reason for my "cut and paste" was to show some of the differences between the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And since the Book of Mormon does not agree with or fit Scripture nor the doctrines of Scripture I must conclude that it is not a revelation of God. Thus in the Book of Mormon there is no hope. :(


    And thus shall we move onto your statement about God giving you answers about the Book of Mormon. We can see that the Book does not agree with Scripture (The Bible). Thus it is not of God, for God has revealed Himself through Scripture and if the Book of Mormon blatantly disagrees with Scripture it cannot be of God. Then who did it come from?


    In sake of discussion if the Book of Mormon is not of God, then who is it from?
     
  15. Ioustinos

    Ioustinos Veteran

    +148
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    US-Libertarian
    Aeon,


    Here is a link that shows a brief view of how the Book of Mormon and Mormon doctrine contradict each other.


    Also, as we and if we continue this conversation I would like to remind you that in no way am I out to insult/attack you personally. I am just out to look closely at the Mormon belief and its errors.
     
  16. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Aeon:

    By definition, if the original Church of Christ were to "apostasize," then the gates of the netherworld would indeed have been successful against it. Joseph Smith stated, that NONE were right, ALL were wrong, and his mission was to bring everyone to the Mormon Church, and to the Book of Mormon, "the most correct book on earth." The desire of present-day Mormons to research their family trees and to baptize their dead ancestors, to bring THEM into the fold of the LDS Church, means that yes, indeed, ALL OTHER CHURCHES are wrong, and that the gates of the netherworld prevailed. Period. Mormons are taught from a very young age that all other Churches are wrong, and if you leave the Mormon faith, you will never find Heaven.

    So right there, Joseph Smith has proclaimed that Jesus lied when He told Peter, that the gates of the netherworld would never prevail against His Church.

    Joseph Smith also proclaimed that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on Earth, yet that book has undergone thousands of revisions. Some have been just to correct typographical errors, grammatical errors, punctuation errors. Some corrections were to fix actual content errors, or to change wording to fit the LDS Church teachings. Sandra and Jerald Tanner of the Utah Lighthouse Ministry have dedicated their lives to documenting the changes in the Book of Mormon.

    On the other hand, Christians readily admit that the Bible has been translated many times over the years, and through better understanding of the ancient manuscripts we have gained greater insight in what the Apostles and Prophets wanted to convey. And it was through the discovery of ancient scrolls in the Dead Sea area that CONFIRMED the translations we are using today are essentially the same. How great is our God!

    Everything in the Bible has supplemental backing. There are outside sources confirming Biblical events, there is extensive archaeological evidence, even the actual terrain of the Holy Lands and surrounding areas coincide with what the Bible says.

    The Book of Mormon has no such supplemental backing. There are no older manuscripts which can be checked against the BoM. Devout LDS archaeologists have been trying for YEARS to uncover evidence of the lost tribes of Israel on the American continents. The great battles and complex civilizations described in the BoM should have left SOMETHING behind, and there is nothing.

    Then, there is the problem of DNA. According to the BoM, the ancestors of the early American native population were of Semitic descent. However, genetic studies show that the Amerindian people actually originated from the Asiatic races.

    In the Bible, the more we learn, the more science discovers, the richer the stories become. It's like God has hidden nuggets of wisdom that can only be explained as mankind grows in intellect.

    For the Book of Mormon, the opposite is true.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I also had a great friend of mine go to the library and do tons of reading on this subject. I can link ya to the cite where he talked with a LDS member about it....
     
  18. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    well soldiers, that's about wraps it up. It'd be way intrested what you could learn, and find out it you were willing to "believe" for a few moments that it was possible, the book of mormon. If you were to try and defend, what is written in the book. You could find good answers to every criticism. There are tons of answers, I have lots. But I don't feel that it is worth the debate. Cause that is not what the book is about at all.
    Here is a comment from Christ in the Book of Mormon...

    "For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

    Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away." 3 nef 11

    I don't know what you all have felt during this conversation, but I felt a bit of contention. Personal check, not pointing fingers. I am just decided now that the gospel of Christ, always builds and grows. The love, is always multiplied and never divided. For me, I really believe the Book of Mormon is true, and I'll always believe it, and I read it every day. And my bible too. I know its the word of God. Thanks for the conversation. Peace love, and eat golden grahms cause they are good.
     
  19. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To Aeon:

    I'm sorry you haven't answered our questions. The Book of Mormon, IMHO, CREATES the contention by the contradictions. As I stated above, I HAVE read it, as well as the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants.

    EVERYTHING I have studied on Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, has "made sense." Questions and contradictions have been clarified, and my faith increased. Yet I don't get that type of resolution with BoM. If you have any references which can clear up these questions and contradictions, I'd be interested in seeing them.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  20. Aeon

    Aeon New Member

    39
    +0
    www.mormonfortress.com
    is an apologetic web site

    Vow, The church of Christ was established among the ten tribes of israel, and also here in the americas. Its never fell. Never will. Maybe in some places people reject it but I don't believe it can be destroyed.
    If you have a specific question I will answer it. I'll try no to be contensious, promise =) but don't cut and paste like a bunch of bashes. We can talk things over one at a time . Peace I am here for a few.
     
Loading...