LouisBooth
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ahh..so you're a gnostic? So you also think we have the power to create?
I'm not sure you should be in the christians only forum.
I'm not sure you should be in the christians only forum.
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As man is...God once was. As God is, man may become.
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Booth....
and when I say to my children "Let's drive to the store" does that mean my children will be behind the steering wheel as well as myself?
no God alone created..... Isa 45:12
and when I say to my children "Let's drive to the store" does that mean my children will be behind the steering wheel as well as myself?
no God alone created..... Isa 45:12
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LouisBooth
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Ahh..very different thing. He implied by the statement they were included because of the second action. Lets make God in our image. If you where to make your analogy correct you would have to say something like Lets drive to the store and you are in the drivers seat and I am too, or something like that. The statement clearly implies they had work in it. It also says in Col that Christ had part in creation, giving us yet ANOTHER clue that that statement implies trinity. For by him (Christ) all things were created."
Sorry bub, Christ is diety and God is trinity.
Sorry bub, Christ is diety and God is trinity.
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Ioustinos
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Uhhh....anyone read St. John 1?"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
.....And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
So how do we explain away this statement?
Jesaiah
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Booth, According to Isa. 44:24 God was unaccompanied at the original creation. Jesus in the gospels attributes the creation to the Father and has no memory of being the agent in the Genesis creation.
This idea of Jesus having something to do with creation stems out of four horrendously misinterpreted passages, Colossians being one. The other three are Hebrews 1:2-3, Hebrews 1:10-12, and John 1:3. In order to show the fallacy of this idea, take a look at the Hebrew passages first Booth so you can have the proper frame of mind.
"Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the world." (sometimes it is translated as universe).
The word that is translated as "world" is the Greek word aion. It means ages, as in the present evil age and the Messianic age to come.
Aion- This word has been translated as eternal, world, and universe. When this word is translated as "eternal," such as "you will have eternal life," it means "you will have life in the age to come." The following is Strong's Greek dictionary's (which is in the Strong's Concordance) definition of this word. It is number 165 in Strong's, please look it up.
Age (aion) - 1. An unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2. This word is also used to describe this age, i.e. this time period we are in now, and the time period to come, i.e. the Messianic age.
Hebrews 1:2 is speaking of the world (age) to come, the Messianic world. The New Earth and New Heavens. Using Strongs definition, it would be better understood as:
"Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the Messianic age to come."
Hebrews 1:2-3 does not mean that Jesus is the creator, or that the Father through Jesus created the universe. It means that God through Jesus sacrifice on the cross has opened up a way for us to enter the New Earth and New Heavens of the Messianic kingdom when it comes in the future. This is how the age to come is created through Jesus. Notice also that the age to come is created through him (his death) not by him.
Hebrews 1:10 is a continuation of this thought. It is a passage of creation that was attributed to God in the Old Testament. Here it is used for the Son because through the Sons sacrifice the New Earth and New Heavens will be created in the future. Some people might say, Well how do I know for sure that it is speaking about the world to come and not this present world?
If we flip the page to Hebrews 2:5 it will clear up any doubt that you might have on what world we are speaking about.
Hebrews 2:5: " For it was not to angels that he subjected THE WORLD TO COME, OF WHICH WE ARE SPEAKING.
I cannot think of a better or clearer way of saying which world the author has been talking about. It is that simple when you keep verses in their context. This is now in agreement with Hebrews 1:2. If not we have a massive contradiction.
Jesus through his death is responsible for the creation of the Messianic age (world) to come. The universe and everything in it was created only by YHWH.
Isaiah 44:24: Thus says YHWH, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am YHWH, who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?
This idea of Jesus having something to do with creation stems out of four horrendously misinterpreted passages, Colossians being one. The other three are Hebrews 1:2-3, Hebrews 1:10-12, and John 1:3. In order to show the fallacy of this idea, take a look at the Hebrew passages first Booth so you can have the proper frame of mind.
"Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the world." (sometimes it is translated as universe).
The word that is translated as "world" is the Greek word aion. It means ages, as in the present evil age and the Messianic age to come.
Aion- This word has been translated as eternal, world, and universe. When this word is translated as "eternal," such as "you will have eternal life," it means "you will have life in the age to come." The following is Strong's Greek dictionary's (which is in the Strong's Concordance) definition of this word. It is number 165 in Strong's, please look it up.
Age (aion) - 1. An unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2. This word is also used to describe this age, i.e. this time period we are in now, and the time period to come, i.e. the Messianic age.
Hebrews 1:2 is speaking of the world (age) to come, the Messianic world. The New Earth and New Heavens. Using Strongs definition, it would be better understood as:
"Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the Messianic age to come."
Hebrews 1:2-3 does not mean that Jesus is the creator, or that the Father through Jesus created the universe. It means that God through Jesus sacrifice on the cross has opened up a way for us to enter the New Earth and New Heavens of the Messianic kingdom when it comes in the future. This is how the age to come is created through Jesus. Notice also that the age to come is created through him (his death) not by him.
Hebrews 1:10 is a continuation of this thought. It is a passage of creation that was attributed to God in the Old Testament. Here it is used for the Son because through the Sons sacrifice the New Earth and New Heavens will be created in the future. Some people might say, Well how do I know for sure that it is speaking about the world to come and not this present world?
If we flip the page to Hebrews 2:5 it will clear up any doubt that you might have on what world we are speaking about.
Hebrews 2:5: " For it was not to angels that he subjected THE WORLD TO COME, OF WHICH WE ARE SPEAKING.
I cannot think of a better or clearer way of saying which world the author has been talking about. It is that simple when you keep verses in their context. This is now in agreement with Hebrews 1:2. If not we have a massive contradiction.
Jesus through his death is responsible for the creation of the Messianic age (world) to come. The universe and everything in it was created only by YHWH.
Isaiah 44:24: Thus says YHWH, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am YHWH, who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?
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Jesaiah, here is how I would explain - John wrote his first epistle for the sole purpose of correcting the misinterpretation of John 1:1-14 that was occurring even in his own time. I believe they are correct in this assumption because as we shall see John goes into great detail to tell us exactly what the Word is. In Johns first epistle I see a strong effort by John to clarify his position and definition about the Word. He leaves us with no other way to interpret the Word.
Jesaiah - exam John 1:1-14 and compare it to verses in 1 John. Johns first epistle will shed an incredible amount of light on John chapter 1.
Before starting one thing must be said, Johns gospel was not written to prove that Jesus is God, but that he is the Son of God, the Messiah. These are Johns own words.
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God... (John 20: 31).
This is the context that Johns gospel must be read in. To take it out of this context is to interpret John in a way in which John did not intend.
In the beginning was the Word.
The main argument with this verse is whether the Word is another way of saying Jesus, or whether it is what it has always been, a message from God. Yet, theologians have taken the liberty to substitute figuratively and literally Jesus for Word in this verse. Is this accurate? Judge for yourself. Lets first see the definition of Word. It does have a real definition after all.
Word in this verse is a translation of the Greek word logos. In the original Greek text, logos does not have the capital first letter given to Word in the English translation. It should properly be translated word (with a small w).
Another important point to be recognized is the fact that the same exact word (letter for letter) logos is used in other Scriptures and nobody has ever capitalized it, or claimed that it referred to Jesus.
Examples: 2 Timothy 2: 8 - 9 This is my gospel, for which I am suffering to the point of being chained like a criminal. But Gods word is not chained.
1 John 2:7 Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
Revelation 20: 4 5 - I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus AND for the word of God
Revelation 1:2 - His servant John, who gives witness to the word of God AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The two verses above from Johns book of Revelation use the exact same word logos which is translated in English as word. It is important to notice that they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus AND the word (logos) of God. John gives witness to the word of God (Gods message of salvation) AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is obvious that Jesus is not the Word. Logos is used in many places in the New Testament, and it is never used as a reference for Jesus.
The New American Bible has this to say about the word logos in a footnote: May denote an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word, speech, or message.
In Greek, the word logos according to Vines Expository Dictionary means: Logos - The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea.
According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means: Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.
This unfortunately is not what it meant to Greek philosophy. In Greek philosophies such as Stoicism, and Neo-Platonism, logos was considered divine. To a Stoic, logos means the divine principle of life. This is basically a definition of God. In Gnosticism Logos was the actual name of one of the intermediary gods.
Someone educated in one of these philosophies would interpret John 1: 1 in the following manner. In the beginning was the divine principle of life, the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Verse 14. The divine principle of life became flesh.
Now you have God in heaven and in the flesh at the same time. The explanation came in the form of a dual natured Messiah who is fully God and fully man at all times (This definition of Jesus is in the Creed of Chalcedon which is the Trinitarian creed of all Trinitarian denominations). Thus the trinity.
How you can be fully of two different things is a mystery in itself. You can be part Italian and part French at the same time, but you cannot be fully Italian and fully French at the same time. This is why people explaining the trinity always end up saying that its a mystery.
To a Hebrew like John, the phrase word of God According to Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words means, The revealed will of God. In other words, A message from God. In 2 Kings 3:12 when it says: He has the word of the LORD.
It means that God revealed His will to him. We can also compare other verses to verify this definition.
2 Peter 3:5: that long ago by Gods word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water. Revelation 4:11: for you created all things, by your will they came into being. Sirach 42:15: At Gods word were His works brought into being.
Jesaiah - exam John 1:1-14 and compare it to verses in 1 John. Johns first epistle will shed an incredible amount of light on John chapter 1.
Before starting one thing must be said, Johns gospel was not written to prove that Jesus is God, but that he is the Son of God, the Messiah. These are Johns own words.
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God... (John 20: 31).
This is the context that Johns gospel must be read in. To take it out of this context is to interpret John in a way in which John did not intend.
In the beginning was the Word.
The main argument with this verse is whether the Word is another way of saying Jesus, or whether it is what it has always been, a message from God. Yet, theologians have taken the liberty to substitute figuratively and literally Jesus for Word in this verse. Is this accurate? Judge for yourself. Lets first see the definition of Word. It does have a real definition after all.
Word in this verse is a translation of the Greek word logos. In the original Greek text, logos does not have the capital first letter given to Word in the English translation. It should properly be translated word (with a small w).
Another important point to be recognized is the fact that the same exact word (letter for letter) logos is used in other Scriptures and nobody has ever capitalized it, or claimed that it referred to Jesus.
Examples: 2 Timothy 2: 8 - 9 This is my gospel, for which I am suffering to the point of being chained like a criminal. But Gods word is not chained.
1 John 2:7 Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
Revelation 20: 4 5 - I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus AND for the word of God
Revelation 1:2 - His servant John, who gives witness to the word of God AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The two verses above from Johns book of Revelation use the exact same word logos which is translated in English as word. It is important to notice that they were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus AND the word (logos) of God. John gives witness to the word of God (Gods message of salvation) AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is obvious that Jesus is not the Word. Logos is used in many places in the New Testament, and it is never used as a reference for Jesus.
The New American Bible has this to say about the word logos in a footnote: May denote an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word, speech, or message.
In Greek, the word logos according to Vines Expository Dictionary means: Logos - The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea.
According to Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon, it also means: Logos - the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word.
This unfortunately is not what it meant to Greek philosophy. In Greek philosophies such as Stoicism, and Neo-Platonism, logos was considered divine. To a Stoic, logos means the divine principle of life. This is basically a definition of God. In Gnosticism Logos was the actual name of one of the intermediary gods.
Someone educated in one of these philosophies would interpret John 1: 1 in the following manner. In the beginning was the divine principle of life, the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Verse 14. The divine principle of life became flesh.
Now you have God in heaven and in the flesh at the same time. The explanation came in the form of a dual natured Messiah who is fully God and fully man at all times (This definition of Jesus is in the Creed of Chalcedon which is the Trinitarian creed of all Trinitarian denominations). Thus the trinity.
How you can be fully of two different things is a mystery in itself. You can be part Italian and part French at the same time, but you cannot be fully Italian and fully French at the same time. This is why people explaining the trinity always end up saying that its a mystery.
To a Hebrew like John, the phrase word of God According to Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words means, The revealed will of God. In other words, A message from God. In 2 Kings 3:12 when it says: He has the word of the LORD.
It means that God revealed His will to him. We can also compare other verses to verify this definition.
2 Peter 3:5: that long ago by Gods word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water. Revelation 4:11: for you created all things, by your will they came into being. Sirach 42:15: At Gods word were His works brought into being.
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to Jesaiah - 2nd part of reply to your post.
As you can see, Jesaiah, word and will are interchangeable. Gods word represents his thoughts, which is His will. Sirach 37:16 provides us with an excellent example: A word is the source of every deed; a thought, of every act.
Your thoughts are the source of your actions, a word (your will or wisdom) is your thoughts expressed. This is an important definition to remember in order to better understand The Word was God which we will explain in the next few pages.
It would be easier if John were here right now to tell us exactly what he meant, but in a sense he is. He has left us so many clear verses of what he meant by word in his first epistle that sometimes I find it difficult to see how people have misinterpreted his gospel. Let us look at 1 John to find the answer. In 1 John 1:1-3 it states:
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life and the life was manifested; and we have seen, and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us. What we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also.
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word.
1 John 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard.
Notice that in John what is from the beginning is the word, and in 1 John what is from the beginning is something that they heard (a message). Now let us tie in these other verses of Johns first epistle.
1 John 2:7 - Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
In 1 John 1:1 what was from the beginning is something that they heard, here in 1 John 2:7 the old commandment is what they have had from the beginning, (sound familiar?) and the old commandment is the WORD that they what? Heard! The same as in 1 John 1:1. Your next question should be,What commandment is John speaking about?
He is speaking about what Jesus called the greatest commandment, (Mark 12:29) the commandment of love which God gave the Hebrews from the beginning. The message of love that the proclamation of the Kingdom of God brings with it. How do we know for sure that this is the message and/or the commandment that they heard from the beginning? Because John tells you so in 1 John 3:11 and 1 John 3:23: For this is the message you have HEARD from the BEGINNING: we should love one another.
And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another. Loving one another is how the world will know that we are followers of Christ.
John 13:30 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
According to Paul (Romans 13:9), the law of love is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law and it is the Law in the coming Kingdom of God which the Messiah has come to proclaim. These are Jesus own words.
Luke 4:43 To the other towns also I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this purpose I have been sent.
Is Jesus good news about the kingdom the same thing as the word that John speaks about in his writings? Yes it is, this is the word that they have heard. Look at the parable of the sower. Matthew 13:19 The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it.
The message of the Kingdom of God is a message of love. In other words, the word is the message of love in the coming Kingdom of God in which love is the rule, not the exception. The New Age (the Kingdom of God) which Jesus will establish when he returns will be a kingdom of love. This is what proclaiming the word of the kingdom is about, a New World order (new heavens and new earth) based on love. This is the message (the word) that Jesus has brought us. This is the word Jesus spoke about.
John 16:20 Remember the word I spoke to you. John 17:8 Because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they accepted them.
Because of Gods love for us, God has provided us with a message of hope, the hope of entering Gods Kingdom of love. He has demonstrated His love for us and at the same time provided a way for us to enter into his kingdom as His pure, sin-free children by sacrificing for our sins the only unblemished lamb of mankind, Jesus of Nazareth.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
We can also examine the writings of the Apostolic Fathers who are the men that the Apostles or the Apostles disciples put in place to see what they considered the word to be . One of the Apostolic writings, The Epistle to Diognetus in verse 8:11 says: But when he revealed it through His beloved Son, and manifested the purpose which He had prepared from the beginning.
When God revealed what? The word (message) that Jesus brought us. Notice that what was prepared from the beginning is Gods purpose, and it was revealed to us by Jesus.
Another of the Apostolic Fathers named Polycarp, who knew John the Apostle personally, wrote in his Letter to the Philippians in verse 7:2: Wherefore let us forsake the vain doing of the many and their false teachings, and turn unto the word which was delivered unto us from the beginning.
Polycarp is urging the people to turn away from false teachings and turn unto the word. In other words, Turn away from false teachings and return to the original message that was delivered to them from the beginning. His usage of word is very Jewish, and identical to the way that John the Apostle uses it. This is fitting because Polycarp was a disciple of John, and one would expect his views to coincide with Johns, which they do.
Polycarp has no idea of the word being Jesus. He even says that the word was delivered unto us in the beginning. Jesus was not delivered unto us in the beginning, He was revealed to us in the final days, the last days. Hebrews 1:2 states: In these last days He spoke to us through a son.
1 Peter 1:20 says: He was known before the foundations of the world, but revealed in the final times for you.
But Gods message, or will, (the Kingdom of God based on love and ruled by the Messiah,) was delivered unto us in the beginning through the Patriarchs and the Prophets. What is from the beginning is Gods love and His message (logos) for our redemption and salvation that He revealed to us through Jesus. Ephesians 3:11 confirms this. This was according to the eternal purpose that He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What is Gods eternal purpose for us? That we live a life of love and not perish. This is provided for us through His Son Jesus. Because of Jesus sacrifice we are able to enter the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
And the Word was with God.
If John was really trying to say that Jesus is God, he would simply have written; in the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. I do not think that he would have written it in a kind of code that would not be understood until the 3rd century by Greek philosophers.
When John says that the word was with God, he simply means that the word (message, plan) was present in His mind. It was with Him, just like a persons thoughts are with them until they speak. The New American Bible defines word as: Was thought to be a reality lodging within the person, and that it goes out from that person when spoken or written and then lodges within the person to whom it is directed.
This idea is confirmed by Jeremiah 4: 14:How long must your pernicious thoughts lodge within you.
Now lets look at 1 John 1:1-2 to shed some light on this verse. John refers to the Word as the Word of Life. Concerning the Word of life and the life was manifested; and we have seen, and bear witness, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.
Notice that in the verse above it is the eternal life that was with the Father. In John 1:1 it is the Word that was with God. This is why John calls it the Word of Life in 1 John 1:1. Word of Life is another way of saying The message that brings us eternal life.
This is the message that they heard, this is the message that was with God from the beginning. Gods Word of Life (His plan for our salvation) was known to God from long ago. It was with Him from the beginning.
Acts 4:28 - To do what your hand and your will had long ago planned to take place.
Acts 20:27 -For I did not shrink from proclaiming to you the entire plan of God.
And the word was God.
The word is Gods expressed will that He uses to communicate with us. Gods will is God. What John is saying is that Gods word expresses Gods mind.
Word = Gods Will = Gods mind = God.
1 John 1:1-3 which is a parallel to John 1:1-3 in which the Word of life which is the same as the word is translated as it.
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of Life, for the life was made visible; we have seen IT and testify to IT and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us, what we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you.
The Word became flesh
May God always bless you in your search for truth, Jesaiah.
As you can see, Jesaiah, word and will are interchangeable. Gods word represents his thoughts, which is His will. Sirach 37:16 provides us with an excellent example: A word is the source of every deed; a thought, of every act.
Your thoughts are the source of your actions, a word (your will or wisdom) is your thoughts expressed. This is an important definition to remember in order to better understand The Word was God which we will explain in the next few pages.
It would be easier if John were here right now to tell us exactly what he meant, but in a sense he is. He has left us so many clear verses of what he meant by word in his first epistle that sometimes I find it difficult to see how people have misinterpreted his gospel. Let us look at 1 John to find the answer. In 1 John 1:1-3 it states:
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life and the life was manifested; and we have seen, and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us. What we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also.
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word.
1 John 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard.
Notice that in John what is from the beginning is the word, and in 1 John what is from the beginning is something that they heard (a message). Now let us tie in these other verses of Johns first epistle.
1 John 2:7 - Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
In 1 John 1:1 what was from the beginning is something that they heard, here in 1 John 2:7 the old commandment is what they have had from the beginning, (sound familiar?) and the old commandment is the WORD that they what? Heard! The same as in 1 John 1:1. Your next question should be,What commandment is John speaking about?
He is speaking about what Jesus called the greatest commandment, (Mark 12:29) the commandment of love which God gave the Hebrews from the beginning. The message of love that the proclamation of the Kingdom of God brings with it. How do we know for sure that this is the message and/or the commandment that they heard from the beginning? Because John tells you so in 1 John 3:11 and 1 John 3:23: For this is the message you have HEARD from the BEGINNING: we should love one another.
And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another. Loving one another is how the world will know that we are followers of Christ.
John 13:30 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
According to Paul (Romans 13:9), the law of love is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law and it is the Law in the coming Kingdom of God which the Messiah has come to proclaim. These are Jesus own words.
Luke 4:43 To the other towns also I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this purpose I have been sent.
Is Jesus good news about the kingdom the same thing as the word that John speaks about in his writings? Yes it is, this is the word that they have heard. Look at the parable of the sower. Matthew 13:19 The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it.
The message of the Kingdom of God is a message of love. In other words, the word is the message of love in the coming Kingdom of God in which love is the rule, not the exception. The New Age (the Kingdom of God) which Jesus will establish when he returns will be a kingdom of love. This is what proclaiming the word of the kingdom is about, a New World order (new heavens and new earth) based on love. This is the message (the word) that Jesus has brought us. This is the word Jesus spoke about.
John 16:20 Remember the word I spoke to you. John 17:8 Because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they accepted them.
Because of Gods love for us, God has provided us with a message of hope, the hope of entering Gods Kingdom of love. He has demonstrated His love for us and at the same time provided a way for us to enter into his kingdom as His pure, sin-free children by sacrificing for our sins the only unblemished lamb of mankind, Jesus of Nazareth.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
We can also examine the writings of the Apostolic Fathers who are the men that the Apostles or the Apostles disciples put in place to see what they considered the word to be . One of the Apostolic writings, The Epistle to Diognetus in verse 8:11 says: But when he revealed it through His beloved Son, and manifested the purpose which He had prepared from the beginning.
When God revealed what? The word (message) that Jesus brought us. Notice that what was prepared from the beginning is Gods purpose, and it was revealed to us by Jesus.
Another of the Apostolic Fathers named Polycarp, who knew John the Apostle personally, wrote in his Letter to the Philippians in verse 7:2: Wherefore let us forsake the vain doing of the many and their false teachings, and turn unto the word which was delivered unto us from the beginning.
Polycarp is urging the people to turn away from false teachings and turn unto the word. In other words, Turn away from false teachings and return to the original message that was delivered to them from the beginning. His usage of word is very Jewish, and identical to the way that John the Apostle uses it. This is fitting because Polycarp was a disciple of John, and one would expect his views to coincide with Johns, which they do.
Polycarp has no idea of the word being Jesus. He even says that the word was delivered unto us in the beginning. Jesus was not delivered unto us in the beginning, He was revealed to us in the final days, the last days. Hebrews 1:2 states: In these last days He spoke to us through a son.
1 Peter 1:20 says: He was known before the foundations of the world, but revealed in the final times for you.
But Gods message, or will, (the Kingdom of God based on love and ruled by the Messiah,) was delivered unto us in the beginning through the Patriarchs and the Prophets. What is from the beginning is Gods love and His message (logos) for our redemption and salvation that He revealed to us through Jesus. Ephesians 3:11 confirms this. This was according to the eternal purpose that He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What is Gods eternal purpose for us? That we live a life of love and not perish. This is provided for us through His Son Jesus. Because of Jesus sacrifice we are able to enter the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
And the Word was with God.
If John was really trying to say that Jesus is God, he would simply have written; in the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. I do not think that he would have written it in a kind of code that would not be understood until the 3rd century by Greek philosophers.
When John says that the word was with God, he simply means that the word (message, plan) was present in His mind. It was with Him, just like a persons thoughts are with them until they speak. The New American Bible defines word as: Was thought to be a reality lodging within the person, and that it goes out from that person when spoken or written and then lodges within the person to whom it is directed.
This idea is confirmed by Jeremiah 4: 14:How long must your pernicious thoughts lodge within you.
Now lets look at 1 John 1:1-2 to shed some light on this verse. John refers to the Word as the Word of Life. Concerning the Word of life and the life was manifested; and we have seen, and bear witness, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.
Notice that in the verse above it is the eternal life that was with the Father. In John 1:1 it is the Word that was with God. This is why John calls it the Word of Life in 1 John 1:1. Word of Life is another way of saying The message that brings us eternal life.
This is the message that they heard, this is the message that was with God from the beginning. Gods Word of Life (His plan for our salvation) was known to God from long ago. It was with Him from the beginning.
Acts 4:28 - To do what your hand and your will had long ago planned to take place.
Acts 20:27 -For I did not shrink from proclaiming to you the entire plan of God.
And the word was God.
The word is Gods expressed will that He uses to communicate with us. Gods will is God. What John is saying is that Gods word expresses Gods mind.
Word = Gods Will = Gods mind = God.
1 John 1:1-3 which is a parallel to John 1:1-3 in which the Word of life which is the same as the word is translated as it.
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of Life, for the life was made visible; we have seen IT and testify to IT and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made visible to us, what we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you.
The Word became flesh
May God always bless you in your search for truth, Jesaiah.
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"Booth, According to Isa. 44:24 God was unaccompanied at the original creation. "
I agree, because the three are one. Funny how your interpreation of this verse also doesn't explain John chapter 1 nor does it explain why the expression God uses in gen is plural. I'd say its because you're wrong. thanks for strenghening the case for trinity though.
"Jesaiah - exam John 1:1-14 and compare it to verses in 1 John. Johns first epistle will shed an incredible amount of light on John chapter 1. "
can you cite some books that place 1 john before John?
"take a look at the Hebrew passages first Booth so you can have the proper frame of mind. "
I have and it affirms trinity.
"Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the Messianic age to come." "
I'd disagree. You need to put in what it ways. Through Christ was made all eternity. That's a correct reading. Christ made everything.
"Hebrews 1:2-3 does not mean that Jesus is the creator, or that the Father through Jesus created the universe. It means that God through Jesus sacrifice on the cross has opened up a way for us to enter the New Earth and New Heavens of the Messianic kingdom when it comes in the future. This is how the age to come is created through Jesus. Notice also that the age to come is created through him (his death) not by him. "
that may be your OPINION, but it certainly doesn't fit the context of the passage. What's really clinching is chapter 1. "God also testifed to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Christ made it clear that he send the HS and in other sections said God sent the HS. Solution: Christ is God. Or do you think the bible is wrong in places?
"This is now in agreement with Hebrews 1:2. If not we have a massive contradiction.
"
no, its not a contradiction at all since he was addressing the end times. not the beginning.
"This is the context that Johns gospel must be read in. "
LOL. Are you serious? The context of a letter is set in the beginning, not the end. Sorry, you're wayyy off on this one. So you read the last page of a book to get the context? No. You read the first few pages for character introduction and clarification on plot beginnings. This is why John made it clear in the beginning that Christ was God.
"Someone educated in one of these philosophies would interpret John 1: 1 in the following manner. In the beginning was the divine principle of life, the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Verse 14. The divine principle of life became flesh. "
*sigh* I've studied these among other definations of the word Logos in that time period. the defiation "the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word. " Fits quite nicely. Christ was God's physical representation of his Word, which, is divine. If you look at the context of the passage you will see that it proves Christ is divine, thus God. This is the reason for the verse "and the word dwelt among us and became flesh" (paraphrase). God's plan was realized through Christ who was God. thus we have the complete meaning of the word Logos, Christ is God's plan who is divine. IE Christ is God.
"If John was really trying to say that Jesus is God, he would simply have written; in the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. "
and here you take the cultural context out of it. they people of the time would understand exact what John was saying, as I have explained it to you. He made it quite simple you see. Christ is God's plan who is divine. This is what Logos is. Then he makes the reference to being God and with God. This is also why Christ says, if you have seen me you have seen the father, and I and the father are one. It is also why col says he was the full physical representation of God. Thus making him, as the old saying goes, God with flesh on.
thus our conclusion must be that Christ is God.
I agree, because the three are one. Funny how your interpreation of this verse also doesn't explain John chapter 1 nor does it explain why the expression God uses in gen is plural. I'd say its because you're wrong.
thanks for strenghening the case for trinity though."Jesaiah - exam John 1:1-14 and compare it to verses in 1 John. Johns first epistle will shed an incredible amount of light on John chapter 1. "
can you cite some books that place 1 john before John?
"take a look at the Hebrew passages first Booth so you can have the proper frame of mind. "
I have and it affirms trinity.
"Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the Messianic age to come." "
I'd disagree. You need to put in what it ways. Through Christ was made all eternity. That's a correct reading. Christ made everything.
"Hebrews 1:2-3 does not mean that Jesus is the creator, or that the Father through Jesus created the universe. It means that God through Jesus sacrifice on the cross has opened up a way for us to enter the New Earth and New Heavens of the Messianic kingdom when it comes in the future. This is how the age to come is created through Jesus. Notice also that the age to come is created through him (his death) not by him. "
that may be your OPINION, but it certainly doesn't fit the context of the passage. What's really clinching is chapter 1. "God also testifed to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Christ made it clear that he send the HS and in other sections said God sent the HS. Solution: Christ is God. Or do you think the bible is wrong in places?
"This is now in agreement with Hebrews 1:2. If not we have a massive contradiction.
"
no, its not a contradiction at all since he was addressing the end times. not the beginning.
"This is the context that Johns gospel must be read in. "
LOL. Are you serious? The context of a letter is set in the beginning, not the end. Sorry, you're wayyy off on this one. So you read the last page of a book to get the context? No. You read the first few pages for character introduction and clarification on plot beginnings. This is why John made it clear in the beginning that Christ was God.
"Someone educated in one of these philosophies would interpret John 1: 1 in the following manner. In the beginning was the divine principle of life, the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Verse 14. The divine principle of life became flesh. "
*sigh* I've studied these among other definations of the word Logos in that time period. the defiation "the inward thought which is expressed in the spoken word. " Fits quite nicely. Christ was God's physical representation of his Word, which, is divine. If you look at the context of the passage you will see that it proves Christ is divine, thus God. This is the reason for the verse "and the word dwelt among us and became flesh" (paraphrase). God's plan was realized through Christ who was God. thus we have the complete meaning of the word Logos, Christ is God's plan who is divine. IE Christ is God.
"If John was really trying to say that Jesus is God, he would simply have written; in the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. "
and here you take the cultural context out of it. they people of the time would understand exact what John was saying, as I have explained it to you. He made it quite simple you see. Christ is God's plan who is divine. This is what Logos is. Then he makes the reference to being God and with God. This is also why Christ says, if you have seen me you have seen the father, and I and the father are one. It is also why col says he was the full physical representation of God. Thus making him, as the old saying goes, God with flesh on.
thus our conclusion must be that Christ is God.
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Booth: Isaiah 44:24: Thus says YHWH, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am YHWH, who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?
might I suggest that if your purpose is to bring truth to others that you do this in a manner befitting a disciple of Christ? I have read many of your posts on several threads and what I find is a haughty spirit : you laugh and mock what others think think..... tis a shame really
and no beloved....Christ is not the self existent GOD....there is but one God and one mediator..... also
1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, AND with his Son Jesus Christ.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
KJV
might I suggest that if your purpose is to bring truth to others that you do this in a manner befitting a disciple of Christ? I have read many of your posts on several threads and what I find is a haughty spirit : you laugh and mock what others think think..... tis a shame really
and no beloved....Christ is not the self existent GOD....there is but one God and one mediator..... also
1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, AND with his Son Jesus Christ.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.KJV
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
"might I suggest that if your purpose is to bring truth to others that you do this in a manner befitting a disciple of Christ? I have read many of your posts on several threads and what I find is a haughty spirit : you laugh and mock what others think think..... tis a shame really "
whatever you say. I explained your objection perfectly in the confines of scripture. If you don't like it, I'm sorry but I'm not going to back down on what the word of God says. I don't mock other people on purpose. I do *sigh* a lot because I deal with the same things over and over and it does wear on me. I ask God for strenght and get it from him to go on and address people that don't want to hear God's word. I just keep going though because I am to proclaim what he has written.
Sorry to say that God is trinity. Pure and simple. I was made by God yes, that's right, it was through Christ. Why? Because God is trinity. So if you don't want to discuss anymore, which you seem not to, have a great night and remember, God is trinity
whatever you say. I explained your objection perfectly in the confines of scripture. If you don't like it, I'm sorry but I'm not going to back down on what the word of God says. I don't mock other people on purpose. I do *sigh* a lot because I deal with the same things over and over and it does wear on me. I ask God for strenght and get it from him to go on and address people that don't want to hear God's word. I just keep going though because I am to proclaim what he has written.
Sorry to say that God is trinity. Pure and simple.
I was made by God yes, that's right, it was through Christ. Why? Because God is trinity. So if you don't want to discuss anymore, which you seem not to, have a great night and remember, God is trinity
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Rafael
Only time enough for love
The serpent in the garden told Eve that we would be like God if we ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and indeed, our eyes were open and our nakedness became aware to us. We became little Gods in a sense of that we judged and discerned, becoming responsible for our judgement of all things. We are little judges and do a very poor job of it. Man's justice and judgement is quite bad.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalms 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
The second verse kind of puts us back in our obvious place.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalms 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
The second verse kind of puts us back in our obvious place.
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And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 cor 10;2-4
Jehovah guided Israel through the wilderness. This scripture says that it was Christ.
Christ is Jehovah. but was known as jehovah when he was only a spirit before he "dwelt among us in the flesh", like Jes said, also through the father created all things. And was part of the Trinity before he was born into the flesh. he was God.
But he was born. Died. Resurrected. And still has a body, its not like he is just gonna throw it aside.
We too will ressurect. Becoming more like God.
Booth, I am not gnostic, I am mormon, you would have saw that if you read what I posted. I am not sure if we took part in the creation, but I said we were THERE, or at least we were concious of what was taking place.
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 cor 10;2-4
Jehovah guided Israel through the wilderness. This scripture says that it was Christ.
Christ is Jehovah. but was known as jehovah when he was only a spirit before he "dwelt among us in the flesh", like Jes said, also through the father created all things. And was part of the Trinity before he was born into the flesh. he was God.
But he was born. Died. Resurrected. And still has a body, its not like he is just gonna throw it aside.
We too will ressurect. Becoming more like God.
Booth, I am not gnostic, I am mormon, you would have saw that if you read what I posted. I am not sure if we took part in the creation, but I said we were THERE, or at least we were concious of what was taking place.
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
The idea that we are gods is a gnostic though. this relgion is a lot older then mormanism. That is why i said that. So again, who was God talking to when he said let US make, indicating they had part in the creation process?
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Aeon,
God our Father, and the Father of the only begotten son Jesus the Messiah - the annointed one, led Israel through the wilderness. Jesus the Messiah was not begotten until much later in HISstory - Christ did not lead them. Where does scripture state that it was Christ that led them? How did you come to this understanding by reading I Cor 10:4? the spiritual Rock they drank of ..... the Messiah they knew would come.....and did follow them (much later in time of course)
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my apologies LouisBooth - I thought this thread was closed - I'm glad to have this discussion still going.
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exodus 16:4
Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Ex. 17: 6
Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Num. 20: 8
8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
Ex. 16: 15.
15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the cbread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
All this is form the KJV. LORD in caps is Jehovah. The scripture in 1 cor 10;2-4 say it was christ. You're right, the Christ didn't come into the world until long after Jehovah. But what I am saying is that JEhovah is Jesus before he was born. Acting under the direction of the Father.
Check this though.
John 8: 56-58
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Ex. 17: 6
Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Num. 20: 8
8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
Ex. 16: 15.
15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the cbread which the LORD hath given you to eat.
All this is form the KJV. LORD in caps is Jehovah. The scripture in 1 cor 10;2-4 say it was christ. You're right, the Christ didn't come into the world until long after Jehovah. But what I am saying is that JEhovah is Jesus before he was born. Acting under the direction of the Father.
Check this though.
John 8: 56-58
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
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yes, I recv'd your post...do I dare to answer here....knowing that you will delete once again....
You have stated I am not a Christian LouisBooth.... you are so mistaken...
You have stated I am not a Christian LouisBooth.... you are so mistaken...
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