LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

[Major1]

I'm not a wall-of-text person-- you probably don't want to read a wall of text, and I don't want to write it. So, I'm going to keep this short and focus on the big points. Free free to ask for any elaboration you want. If something appears contradictory to what you've been told about LDS beliefs, I'd encourage you to ask about it rather than slamming up a wall of quotes. Also, if you want any sources supporting what I'm saying here, I'm happy to provide them.

Actually LDS firmly believe all of these. There are common misconceptions around #1 because LDS believe there is ONE God via unity and not via a shared substance as Athanasian Creed states. CARM's claim for #2 is simply bunk. #3 is a another common misconception which I will elaborate more on in a minute. #4 is also complete bunk. Same with #5.

Actually LDS firmly believe all these.

LDS believe Christ has always existed and is no way a "creation" as Creedal Christians believe man is. There are differences between Creedal beliefs about man and LDS beliefs.

This is a complete straw man argument. No, LDS don't believe in OSAS, Calvinism, or the idea that God denies free will. But none of those are requirement to be Christian. LDS also don't believe that our works save us or the Law of Moses (contrary to CARM's claims). Rather, LDS believe that it's grace that saves-- salvation is gift from God. A person must accept this gift via faith and repentance. Yes, LDS firmly deny any theology that says anyone has a license to sin.

Actually LDS love the Bible and aren't going to to accept poor translations of it (sorry NWT, you're vetoed off the island). I don't think LDS are alone in desiring correct translations.

The Biblical definition of a Christian: a disciple of Christ (Acts 11:19-26).

(Dang, this still turned into a small wall of text!)

So basically you are saying that all the documented information about LDS is all lies and YOU are the only one who is able to tell the truth and you are in fact a Bible Christian.

From the MORMON HANDBOOK found at ...................
God Is An Exalted Man - | - Mormon Handbook

Mormon General Authorities teach that God was not always God, but was once a mortal man.
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea... He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth."
Joseph Smith - Mormonism founder
Ensign, April 1971, p.13-14


"Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is."
Orson Hyde - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 1:123


"He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through.
Brigham Young - Mormon prophet
Journal of Discourses 7:333


"God is a natural man... Where did he get his knowledge from? From his Father, just as we get knowledge from our earthly parents. "
Heber C. Kimball - First Presidency Counselor
Journal of Discourses 8:211

Genesis 1:1..........
"In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth".

 

[Major1]

You seem to think these things will not happen, but they will. Many of the prophecies mentioned in the Bible have not come to pass yet either. Paul was also a jail bird so why do you believe him?

Paul was in jail for PREACHING the Gospel and Mr. Smith was in jail for BANK FRAUD.

The prophecies did not happen and can not happen WHEN HE SAID THAT WOULD.
That alone makes him a FALSE prophet.

Prophecy about Jesus' return within 56 years--"President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).

Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.


Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith's Generation--"Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house . . . 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed." (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)

1. The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.
2. The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.

There are several more, Do you want me to continue with this??????

 

[Jane_Doe]

So basically you are saying that all the documented information about LDS is all lies and YOU are the only one who is able to tell the truth and you are in fact a Bible Christian.

What I said was CARM's write up of LDS beliefs was a gross misrepresentations of LDS beliefs and full of falsehoods. Upon your request, I then went through and illustrated how.

From the MORMON HANDBOOK found at ...................
God Is An Exalted Man - | - Mormon Handbook

This website is another which grossly misrepresents LDS beliefs. A way this website could be revised to be accurate were to include a header:
"Hey, here are a bunch of quotes that aren't LDS doctrinal statements, LDS don't consider to be infallible, nor are they actually taught or discussed in actual LDS church. They have no impact on LDS theology, belief, or practice. Any LDS person is free to agree, disagree, not care, or whatever with these statements. But if YOU want to care more about them than LDS simply because you have nothing better to do with your time, here you go-- oh and by the way here's the 20 chapter book of background theology to even understand what's be addressed"

Protestantism is a strong faith, with many good things therein. There is no need for a Protestant (let alone a Protestant minister) to need to spend their time misrepresenting another faith. Instead share your goodness.

 

[He is the way]

Incorrect. Not all 8 witnesses said 30 lbs; some said 40-60. The 90 lbs came from an estimation in another thread that was not disputed.

Regardless of actual weight, running with a limp for 3 miles and carrying them while being chased through woods by men who want to harm him is highly unlikely.

Yes some did say 40-60. Emma Smith said they were light enough for her to move around when she was cleaning. It was Joseph Smith Sr. who weighed them and stated that they weighed 30 pounds. Therefore you are correct, it was not all of the eight witnesses. Despite of a slight limp Joseph was strong and had an active life.

 

[Major1]

I am NOT wrong:

(New Testament | Revelation 11:3 - 13)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

That is for a future different time and does not actually apply to us today.

There is NO church doctrine in the Revelation as the church was removed in Rev. 4:1.

Since the work of God is to turn the Jews to Christ, Jews would accept "prophets" over preachers as it is assumned that the two will be Jews.

 

[Major1]

What I said was CARM's write up of LDS beliefs was a gross misrepresentations of LDS beliefs and full of falsehoods. Upon your request, I then went through and illustrated how.

This website is another which grossly misrepresents LDS beliefs. A way this website could be revised to be accurate were to include a header:
"Hey, here are a bunch of quotes that aren't LDS doctrinal statements, nor actually taught or discussed in actual LDS church. They have no impact on LDS theology, belief, or practice. Any LDS person is free to agree, disagree, not care, or whatever with these statements. But if YOU want to care more about them than LDS simply because you have nothing better to do with your time, here you go-- oh and by the way here's the 20 chapter book of background theology to even understand what's be addressed"

Protestantism is a strong faith, with many good things therein. There is no need for a Protestant (let alone a Protestant minister) to need to spend their time misrepresenting another faith. Instead share your goodness.

So even when YOUR OWN Handbook is copied and pasted, you still rationalize it.

There is in fact NO misrepresentation at all is there?

There is simply belief and un-belief!

 

[Jane_Doe]

So even when YOUR OWN Handbook is copied and pasted, you still rationalize it.

There is in fact NO misrepresentation at all is there?

There is simply belief and un-belief!

"Welcome - | - Mormon Handbook" isn't an LDS site at all. And yes, it does grossly misrepresent LDS beliefs in that it does not contain a paragraph explaining that none of these quotes are actual LDS doctrinal statements or the background behind the statements it posts.

If you want to understand LDS doctrine and the process that goes into that, I recommend this link:
Approaching Mormon Doctrine

 

[Major1]

Yes some did say 40-60. Emma Smith said they were light enough for her to move around when she was cleaning. It was Joseph Smith Sr. who weighed them and stated that they weighed 30 pounds. Therefore you are correct, it was not all of the eight witnesses. Despite of a slight limp Joseph was strong and had an active life.

You should know, but probably will not admit it, the truth is that your prophet, Joseph Smith who formed Mormonism in 1830 was a 33rd degree Freemason named Joseph.

Mormonism's rituals and ceremonies are virtually identical to Masonic rites and rituals.

 

[dzheremi]

The "spot the Mormon doctrine" game is so tiring and boring. Heck, even apostles quorum member Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine has been criticized as "non-doctrinal"!

If Mormons themselves can't get straight what they believe and why, then why should any of the rest of us even care when they protest "That's not doctrine!" in (non-)response to absolutely everything? It's nobody else's fault that you apparently cannot effectively communicate and/or control your message to the non-initiated, Mormons. As I've said before, if the only way you have to fully explain your faith to outsiders requires you to first convert them (as seems to be the case, given how much is kept from converts and outright denied in mixed company re: the temple rituals and ceremonies, the more controversial theology, etc.), then your faith is Gnostic hooey.

I'd like to hope that this is not in fact the case with Mormonism, given how often our Mormon friends tell us that we only have to ask for clarification on their beliefs and practices rather than go to non-LDS websites (or, as it seems with regard to things like the King Follett discourse, LDS ones), but knowing how frequently "That's not doctrine!" is taken by them to be an answer in and of itself (that is, the times when we're discussing things that Mormons will actually discuss; a great deal of what people are most interested in being precisely that material which is considered "too scared" to put before mere mortals like we non-Mormons), I have my doubts by this point.

 

[Major1]

"Welcome - | - Mormon Handbook" isn't an LDS site at all. And yes, it does grossly misrepresent LDS beliefs in that it does not contain a paragraph explaining that none of these quotes are actual LDS doctrinal statements or the background behind the statements it posts.

If you want to understand LDS doctrine and the process that goes into that, I recommend this link:
Approaching Mormon Doctrine

OK, So then..........is it true that the Mormons teach that we are all spirit offspring produced by God the Father and his wife in heaven.

Do you accept the Mormon teaching that we are all pre-existing spirits with God which then come down to inhabit human bodies on earth.

This is a purely a Mormon doctrine and not found in the Bible. They cannot find any support for this teaching in the Bible. They may call it plain and precious, Christian teaching calls this false.

Mormonism does hold: “This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church... they said that 'man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,' that man is the 'offspring of celestial parentage, 'and that 'all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 516).

Is that also a false misunderstanding that is literally found in the Mormon Doctrine?

 

[He is the way]

Paul was in jail for PREACHING the Gospel and Mr. Smith was in jail for BANK FRAUD.

The prophecies did not happen and can not happen WHEN HE SAID THAT WOULD.
That alone makes him a FALSE prophet.

Prophecy about Jesus' return within 56 years--"President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).

One at a time. Let us look at what was said:
Doctrine and Covenants section 130: 12-17

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

Joseph made reference to the prophesy on more than one occasions, and stated that it was his belief that the Lord would not come before the time of his 85th birthday, which was a correct prophecy.

 

[mmksparbud]

So?

LOL----you, of course, have no problem with that.

 

[Major1]

So Protestants are perfect? No they are far from it. That being said, the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is correct.

NO they are not!

The point being mad here, over and over is that The Church of Latter Day Saints is NOT a
Bible Christian based faith.

It is a religion unto itself and in that fact alone then YES it is correct.

However, as Bible Christianity, it is no where close to be correct to Bible doctrines.

 

[Major1]

One at a time. Let us look at what was said:
Doctrine and Covenants section 130: 12-17

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.

14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.

17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

Joseph made reference to the prophesy on more than one occasions, and stated that it was his belief that the Lord would not come before the time of his 85th birthday, which was a correct prophecy.

WRONG...........Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.

And before you try to one again make an excuse and explain away the 2nd false prophesy...........
The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.

The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.

 

[Jane_Doe]

OK, So then..........is it true that the Mormons teach that we are all spirit offspring produced by God the Father and his wife in heaven.

(Ok, so on to the topic of "man")

LDS believe that the Father is the Father of all. We are all His children. How this spiritual Father-ship mechanically works is not understood at this time (let's face it, we understand jack about the mechanics of spirits in general). It is known (speaking from LDS doctrine perspective) that each person has always existed.

As to Heavenly Mother, that's a topic seldom discussed since so little is known. Here's a write up of what is known: Mother in Heaven

Do you accept the Mormon teaching that we are all pre-existing spirits with God which then come down to inhabit human bodies on earth.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee", Jer. 1:4–5.
Yes, I very much believe this. Not as a vague God's-forknowledge way, but in literal we actually knew each other way. Of course, I respect that you believe differently.

This is a purely a Mormon doctrine and not found in the Bible. They cannot find any support for this teaching in the Bible. They may call it plain and precious, Christian teaching calls this false.

LDS are not sola Biblia, nor is sola Biblia a requirement of being a Christian nor believed by the numerical majority of Christians.

(McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 516).

Is that also a false misunderstanding that is literally found in the Mormon Doctrine?

"Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R McConkie is a horrible misnomer of a name, because that book isn't actually LDS doctrine. It wasn't even published with knowledge/permission of LDS leaders, and when it was published (not by the LDS church) it was immediately criticized by LDS leaders and having errors therein and ordered corrected. It's never been a LDS doctrinal source and even the later revised editions have been out of print for years (to much celebration of some LDS, myself included).

This is all well known in LDS circles, but obviously/understandably not among non-LDS folks. Therefore, when someone tries to 'disprove' LDS beliefs using "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce R McConkie it is clear the target of their discourse is a non-LDS audience.




Note: Major1, I respect what you believe and your right to believe it. I am in NO way attacking your beliefs, your relationship with Christ, or trying to convince you to change any of that. I honestly respect you, your beliefs, and your right to them. I would like to try to clarify what I and other LDS believe / do not believe. Hence my addressing of statements like "LDS don't believe Jesus is divine" as being incorrect-- LDS firmly believe Jesus is the divine Son of God and that's super important.

 

[He is the way]

Paul was in jail for PREACHING the Gospel and Mr. Smith was in jail for BANK FRAUD.

The prophecies did not happen and can not happen WHEN HE SAID THAT WOULD.
That alone makes him a FALSE prophet.

Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith's Generation--"Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house . . . 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed." (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)

1. The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.
2. The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.

Circumstances can change prophecy. Consider the following prophecy by Isaiah:
(Old Testament | 2 Kings 20:1 - 7)

1 IN those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

Now you may say that Isaiah was a false prophet but I know you won't So what changed Joseph's prophecy? The Lord can change His mind depending on the obedience, or disobedience, of His children.
I believe that the temple will still be built in Missouri. Generation does not necessarily mean the lifespan of a man. Jesus prophesied:
(New Testament | Luke 21:27 - 32)

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Do you also believe this is a failed prophecy?

 

[mmksparbud]

For me---just 2 simple little statements are enough to prove he is false---Jesus is the brother to Satan.
There is no way that can be said-----Jesus is the creator, He created everything that has been created---He crested Lucifer---if anything, Jesus is the Father of Lucifer. In no way shape or form, can the 2 be brothers.
and:
Since Jesus created everything---God the Father was never a human on another planet---Jesus did not create God the Father, never saw Him die for the sins of another planet, for Jesus created everything and would have had to create that planet and all it's inhabitants.

oh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

They love to argue that the word all, doesn't really mean all---that it means just what is on this planet--the bible says no such thing--it says all.

 

[He is the way]

OK, So then..........is it true that the Mormons teach that we are all spirit offspring produced by God the Father and his wife in heaven.

Do you accept the Mormon teaching that we are all pre-existing spirits with God which then come down to inhabit human bodies on earth.

This is a purely a Mormon doctrine and not found in the Bible. They cannot find any support for this teaching in the Bible. They may call it plain and precious, Christian teaching calls this false.

Mormonism does hold: “This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church... they said that 'man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father,' that man is the 'offspring of celestial parentage, 'and that 'all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 516).

Is that also a false misunderstanding that is literally found in the Mormon Doctrine?

The Bible does state the existence of pre-existing spirits:
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:1 - 2)

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

 

[He is the way]

For me---just 2 simple little statements are enough to prove he is false---Jesus is the brother to Satan.
There is no way that can be said-----Jesus is the creator, He created everything that has been created---He crested Lucifer---if anything, Jesus is the Father of Lucifer. In no way shape or form, can the 2 be brothers.
and:
Since Jesus created everything---God the Father was never a human on another planet---Jesus did not create God the Father, never saw Him die for the sins of another planet, for Jesus created everything and would have had to create that planet and all it's inhabitants.

oh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

They love to argue that the word all, doesn't really mean all---that it means just what is on this planet--the bible says no such thing--it says all.

The Bible indicates that Satan is a son of God:
(Old Testament | Job 1:6)

6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Satan would not have came it he were not invited.
(Old Testament | Job 2:1)

1 AGAIN there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Satan presented himself because he is a son. God would not be fooled.

 

[mmksparbud]

The Bible does state the existence of pre-existing spirits:
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:1 - 2)

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

How does that in any way teach pre-existence---everything was finished at creation--if anything, it teaches the opposite--everything was created for the planet and the heavens on that creation week. Not one word about pre-existence.