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LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Old Lady, Apr 12, 2018.

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  1. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings. According to some of these, our salvation is assured—we are already saved. In others, salvation must be spoken of as a future event (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:5) or as conditioned upon a future event (e.g., Mark 13:13). But in all of these meanings, or kinds of salvation, salvation is in and through Jesus Christ...

    “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (A of F 1:3).
    Have You Been Saved? - ensign

    Some people believe in giving God permission to save them. Or they expect God to save them based on their imperfect obedience. (We aren't saved by works but by God's grace --- He doesn't need our help.)

    Doctrine and Covenants 82
    9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.
    10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
    Doctrine and Covenants 82
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
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  2. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Just looking for clarification, are you saying that God doesn't require our co-operation, at all?, that would be rape, not love. A gift is given, this is true, unearned, but what then to do with that gift?

    The text does say,

    Ephesians 2:8 KJB - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Ephesians 2:9 KJB - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Ephesians 2:10 KJB - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​

    Faith is to be exercised, as James states [James 2:14-26 KJB].

    Thus it is faith [root, as a gift from God through grace] unto good works [fruit of obedience working in co-operation with God's strength that He gives in Christ Jesus, by the Holy Spirit], as the good works are in salvation, after belief, revealing its actual occurence/transaction. Look at the order of progression in the thought, from its origin to its finality.

    A pardoned criminal, with record cleared, having thus been paid in full, is set at liberty once more, not to commit that which was done in the past, which made them criminal, but now unto a new citizen, with differing [good, not criminal] works. A criminal still on death row, who has not received pardon, it would not matter what works were done, for the works cannot pay the death penalty, even if done into infinity, the penalty was death, not works.

    That which parallels Ephesians 2:8-10 KJB, is 2 Timothy 3:14-17 KJB:

    2 Timothy 3:14 KJB - But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

    2 Timothy 3:15 KJB - And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    2 Timothy 3:16 KJB - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2 Timothy 3:17 KJB - That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.​

    Salvation, is that which is being bought and brought [see Leviticus 25 KJB, in type] back into the perfect will of God [His Ten Commandments]. As James says, the [good, living] works are not the root, but the fruit born of the root of real faith:

    Luke 8:15 KJB - But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.​

    Notice:

    James 2:14 KJB - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    James 2:15 KJB - If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    James 2:16 KJB - And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    James 2:17 KJB - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    James 2:18 KJB - Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    James 2:19 KJB - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    James 2:20 KJB - But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    James 2:21 KJB - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    James 2:22 KJB - Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    James 2:23 KJB - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    James 2:24 KJB - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    James 2:25 KJB - Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    James 2:26 KJB - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

    How did Abraham believe God? Mere mental ascent? No, it was through actual demonstration of the living faith, in the good work by offering Isaac in reality, requested by the commandment of God, thus was obedience and true worship in spirit and in truth. Or one might say in heart and deed.

    Hebrews 6:1 KJB, makes the distinction from "dead works", and thus its contrast in Christ, of living works.​

    Christ Jesus has given us something to "keep" through living faith [not "dead", again not for, not towards, but] "in" salvation:

    Revelation 12:17 KJB And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    1 John 2:3 KJB - And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    John 14:15 KJB - If ye love me, keep my commandments. [see Exodus 20:6 KJB]

    John 14:23 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    John 15:10 KJB - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

    etc., etc.

    A man which does not, through faith, keep the commandments of God [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], did they really have saving faith? No. They had doubt:

    Romans 14:23 KJB - "... or whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

    1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Romans 6:23 KJB - "For the wages of sin is death; ..."
    Notice, the "faith of Jesus":

    Revelation 14:12 KJB - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

    That text does not say "faith in Jesus", but rather the more powerful "faith of Jesus", which allowed Him to walk in the fallen sinful flesh of mankind, as we have now, and not sin. He gave us that example, for He is both substitute and example.

    "... The work of gaining salvation is one of copartnership, a joint operation. There is to be co-operation between God and the repentant sinner. This is necessary for the formation of right principles in the character. Man is to make earnest efforts to overcome that which hinders him from attaining to perfection. But he is wholly dependent upon God for success. Human effort of itself is not sufficient. Without the aid of divine power it avails nothing. God works and man works. Resistance of temptation must come from man, who must draw his power from God. On the one side there is infinite wisdom, compassion, and power; on the other, weakness, sinfulness, absolute helplessness. {AA 482.2}

    God wishes us to have the mastery over ourselves. But He cannot help us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the powers and faculties given to man. Of ourselves, we are not able to bring the purposes and desires and inclinations into harmony with the will of God; but if we are "willing to be made willing," the Saviour will accomplish this for us, "Casting down imaginations, [483] and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Corinthians 10:5. {AA 482.3} ..." - Acts of the Apostles, page 482.2-482.3

    1 Corinthians 9:27 KJB - But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.​
     
  3. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,936
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Christian A true Christian desires to be free from sin.jpg Christian A New Creation in Christ.jpg

    Jesus said,
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Christians Love Him because He first loved us.

    The Holy Spirit is my Teacher.

    Because of your username, I'm under the impression that you are a Seventh-Day Adventist. I do not and will not debate with a Seventh-Day Adventist in a thread that is meant to discuss Mormonism. This is not the place to do that, and this is where I have spent the majority of my time since I joined Christian Forums in 2002. Thank you.
     
  4. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    That's ok, I wasn't looking to debate, I was asking for clarification on what you stated. I wouldn't want someone to leave an error to join another, and so I was simply asking for further definition.

    Yes, I agree with what Jesus said in John 14:15

    John 14:15 KJB - If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

    Jesus what commandments were you talking about for us to keep? Where were you quoting from? Who were you quoting?

    Exodus 20:6 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    Deuteronomy 5:10 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.​

    Oh, the Ten Commandments, including the 7th Day the Sabbath of JEHOVAH Jesus my God. Exodus 20. Yourself. Gotcha' Jesus. Thank you again for making it so simple. :)

    The Holy Spirit is given to them that obey Him -

    Acts 5:32 KJB - And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    Pretty simple.

    Jesus, when you said that the Holy Ghost would lead us into all truth, what did you mean? What is truth?

    Psalms 119:142 KJB - Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

    Psalms 119:151 KJB - Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

    Psalms 25:10 KJB - All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

    John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    John 14:6 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    1 John 5:6 KJB - This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

    Deuternomy 32:4 KJB - He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    1 John 3:4 KJB - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    etc.
    Thank you again Jesus, your word is so clear. Truly you are the God of righteousness. Let me sing a Psalm unto thee:

    Psalms 119:169 KJB - TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

    Psalms 119:170 KJB - Let my supplication come before thee: deliver me according to thy word.

    Psalms 119:171 KJB - My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.

    Psalms 119:172 KJB - My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

    Psalms 119:173 KJB - Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

    Psalms 119:174 KJB - I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

    Psalms 119:175 KJB - Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.

    Psalms 119:176 KJB - I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.​
     
  5. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    AMEN!

    Sadly, I do know Christians who believe God does NOT care if a person gives consent-- in fact that I've met folks to who says that God NEVER has a person give conent. For me... at the risk of getting overly personal here, I was repeatedly raped as a kid-- God's amazing love and grace is the only thing that got me through that misery (it's actually when I accepted Christ). He has always respected me, loved me, and given me the CHOICE to come to Him or not.

    For other folks to try to paint God as a being that NEVER cares whether a person gives consent and that I have no choice but to worship such a person.... needless to say I have a mega problem with that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  6. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,430
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    Salvation

    In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms "saved" and "salvation" have various meanings. ... Salvation from Physical Death. ... Salvation from Sin. ... Being Born Again. ... Salvation from Ignorance. ... Salvation from the Second Death. ... Eternal Life, or Exaltation. ...

    Full details are in the link above
     
  7. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

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    She is correct ... God doesn't require our co-operation.

    Mormonism teaches God requires your co-operation:
    "grace after all you can do"

    "climb up a ladder you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel" Chapter 47 of Exaltation

    "Our responsibility is to rise from mediocrity to competence, from failure to achievement....
    "It is not enough, however, merely to believe in Him and His mission. We need to work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve. We need to know God's laws and live them. We need to receive His saving ordinances. Only by doing so will we obtain true, eternal happiness
    ."
    Ensign January 2018
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Biblical Christianity teaches otherwise:
    Jesus proclaiming "tetelestia !" from the cross.
    (tetelestia: In the Greek, It was a word frequently written across bills to mark them “paid in full.” With his exclamation "It is finished \ tetelestia, Jesus was assuring us he had fully paid our debt of sin.)

    Romans 4:5
    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Luke 7:50
    And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.





     
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  8. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
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    Then the being you worship is worse than a rapist. A rapist only forces themselves on the body, leaving the mind and spirit still yours (shattered, but still yours).

    I don't find such being in the Bible at all-- rather in the Bible I find a God of tremendous love who asks men to follow Him. Not the hatred and force of a rapist, and I shall never bow down to such a hateful being-- let alone worship such a monster.
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    My own heart, born of the love of God, goes out to you sister, in the pain, sorrow and shame you have born in the past, and my heart goes out to those who cannot understand such, for they too need the touch of the compassionate love of God to unfreeze their own heart, to be set free from the pain that satan has caused them; and I, for one, would never ask you to follow a God who was compulsory, since it would be against the character of His person, even against Jesus Christ, who delivered my ownself, from a hell of sorrows and shame, gross darkness and terrible wickedness, similar to yours, though mine own past, goes deeper than being used, for the devil had brought me to know no bounds, to be used, and to use without consent.

    Those who teach that the God of scripture [KJB] does not desire our co-operation, participation, consent, our willing obedience, our free will offering of love in return for all His benefits of the love He has bestowed by His grace, have not rightly understood their Father in Heaven, and they need to repent, and seek His Face, and to look therein and to see that it is devoid of compulsion.

    They need to go outside, and to see the love of God in the things He created for us, as it is written:

    Matthew 10:8 KJB - Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.​

    When Christ Jesus came to those cities who rejected Him, He did not force Himself upon them, but went to another ...

    Jesus knocks.
     
  10. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,936
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    There is no one teaching that God doesn't desire the sheep to follow the Shepherd. We were sometimes darkness, but now we walk in the light.

    Good-bye. :wave:
     
  11. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    God who asks men to follow Him and knocks is VERY different than
    a person who who kicks down the door, straps leashes around peoples necks, and forcefully drags them about.

    The first is the God of the Bible-- the God of love-- who I dedicate my life to.

    The second is worse than a rapist and foreign to the Bible. The fact that some folks encourage me to worship such a monster... I'm sorry, but that just makes me sad. I do not wish anyone to ever being in such a horrible pain where they are forced upon to any degree.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  12. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    You have one thing right, God doesn't kick down the door, with a promise if you open up. You can't force someone to repentance or faith, it has to be based on a love of righteousness and simple child like trust of our heavenly father.
     
  13. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Hi Jane, we have talked many times as you know, but I had no idea. I am VERY sorry to hear that such a horrible thing happened to you :(

    --David
     
  14. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Agreed, it's terrible that someone would do something like that to a child.
     
  15. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    *Shrug* I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm ok-- honestly 100% great actually. Christ's healing is AMAZING!!! I was His love-- His outstretched offering hand-- that got me through that time and healed my wounds after that. Actually, more than just healed my wounds-- for what He gave me is stronger/better than what I had before. That experience... yeah it totally sucked, but it's also where I came to know and love Christ. I do not sit here hurting (so it doesn't regularly come up), rather I dance in Christ every day.

    The only reason I brought it up at all in this thread was people urging me to worship a being who doesn't listen to people's consent--- that I have a MAJOR problem with.

    PS-- always good to see you again St_Worm2 :)
     
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  16. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

    +43,086
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    Hi Jane, I'll have to read through the thread again (or perhaps you could point it out to me?). Where did someone tell you that the God of Christianity 'forces' people into Heaven (or to obey Him?) against their will? Even us Calvinists believe what Romans 2:4 teaches concerning the kindness of God leading us to repentance :)

    Thanks!

    --David
     
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  17. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    Yes.
    This quote was also applauded by another user. There have also been many other examples on this forum of people proselytizing such a view very bluntly.
     
  18. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

    797
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    She is correct ... God doesn't require our co-operation.

    Mormonism teaches God requires your co-operation:
    "grace after all you can do"

    "climb up a ladder you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel" Chapter 47 of Exaltation

    "Our responsibility is to rise from mediocrity to competence, from failure to achievement....
    "It is not enough, however, merely to believe in Him and His mission. We need to work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve. We need to know God's laws and live them. We need to receive His saving ordinances. Only by doing so will we obtain true, eternal happiness
    ."
    Ensign January 2018

    Biblical Christianity teaches otherwise:
    Jesus proclaiming "tetelestia !" from the cross.
    (tetelestia: In the Greek, It was a word frequently written across bills to mark them “paid in full.” With his exclamation "It is finished \ tetelestia, Jesus was assuring us he had fully paid our debt of sin.)

    Romans 4:5
    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Luke 7:50
    And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

    What happened to you when you were a child is wrong and unfortunate. Sorry to hear.

    The context of my reply above was based on the question "you saying that God doesn't require our co-operation, at all?" ... not to explain away or sanction the actions of a rapist.

    As to the second paragraph specifically ... I don't either find such being as to what you're equating with such hostility toward what God revealed in the Bible. Romans 4:5, Luke 7:50.

    God never proselytized a message of "God requires a co-operation"
    Acts 16:30-31
    And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    John 6:28-29 KJV
    Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

     
  19. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

    +43,086
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    Do you have a post # you could give me? Thanks :)

    As for not needing to "cooperate" with God to be saved, I think you may be misunderstanding Twin.Spin's meaning (and therein, what Christianity itself teaches).

    We Christians believe/teach (along with the Bible) that we are saved by "grace", rather than by anything we "do" (grace = God's "unmerited" favor) .. e.g. Romans 3:28, 4:5, Ephesians 2:8-10. Rather, we believe we are saved on the basis of the works of Another, Jesus Christ, who came here to do for us what we could not do for ourselves (to do what was necessary for us to be able to stand in God's presence).

    Not "cooperating" with God doesn't mean that we are fighting against Him because we don't want to be saved (after all, the Bible tells us/we teach that it's those who "believe/trust/have faith" in God who will be saved, not those who don't), it just means that our cooperation is not required, because nothing we "do" (even works of righteousness/works we do according to His will .. Titus 3:5) cannot save us.

    We Christians do choose to please/honor/obey God, not to become or remain saved, but because we already are. IOW, good works/obedience is the "result" or "fruit" of being saved by God, not the cause.

    Jane, here's one thing to consider, if our obedience to God's commands could truly save us, then why would He have ever sent His Son here to die that horrible death on a Cross?

    Thanks!

    Yours and His,
    David

    Romans 11
    6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
    .
     
  20. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

    +990
    Mormon
    #9 of this thread.

    No one here believes a man can be perfect, or any one's deeds save them, or anyone can earn salvation. Everyone agrees that with Romans 3 &4 and Ephesians 2: salvation is a gift from God, completely unmerited by us. Everyone agrees that Christ is the one that saves, and there is no salvation any other way. He was the perfect sacrifice, free from blemish. Those points are all agreed upon and hence there's not too much to discuss there--- though some people do misunderstand LDS beliefs and mistakenly think LDS somehow disagree with any of those statements. Let me know if you want me to elaborate on LDS agreement here.

    Ok, now what is being discussed:
    1) Must a person accept Christ and His gift? Accepting a gift doesn't mean you earned it or deserved it. But a gift, by definition, are things which a person has a choice to accept or reject it.

    2) Or does Christ force it upon a person upon a person, regardless of their consent?


    (This was edited for clarity)
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
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