Articles of Faith

[boswd]

Hi everyone I was hoping you might be able to help understand things a little better. Let me explain what's going on.

As you can tell I am a Methodist. But over the past year I have been deeply drawn to the Ancient Churchs ie RCC and EO and the Anglo-Catholics. My wife on the otherhand, who is of the Assemblies of God faith is not. So we have an understanding and will be going back and forth between Churchs. Now I feel the Anglo-Catholic Church's fits the bill perfectly especially since my wife can take Communion. I really love the Liturgy and the Theology. I found a great one near my work for weekday Mass, The Church of the Advent here in Boston. www.theadvent.org The place is stunning and it really fits the bill perfectly. side note if you are ever in Boston that is a must see along with Trinity Church, another Epsicopalian Church.
Also close to home where I live, about 30 miles south of Boston, I've found a beautiful Parish for Sunday Service. St. Johns in Hingham, Ma
St. John's Episcopal Church - Hingham, MA - News.

So this brings to my question, after going through the Articles of Religion there are a few that find me a bit odd, for example the saying Statues and Icons are basically repugnant but after going to the above said Churchs and Trinity Church Boston I found that all had a great deal of statues and Icons.
The Intercession of Saints, seems to be forbidden, but as there is a poll here and on some Episcopalian Websties it will explain why they pray to Mary and the Saints for Intercession.
And Lastly Free Will vs. Pre Destination. The Artlices seem to really embrace the Calvin view of this topic. But having been on this board long enough especially in the war torn GT section It does not seem to be embraced by the Anglican's there except for a few.

So are the Articles of Religion, Dogma upheld by all Episcopalions / Anglo Catholic Churchs? Some things seem to be of the Contrary.
I hope someone can help, this is a pretty big change for me and I just want to be sure I am in full step.

Thanks and God bless

 

[Secundulus]

So are the Articles of Faith Dogma upheld by all Episcopaling / Anglo Catholic Churchs? Some things seem to be of the Contrary.
I hope someone can help, this is a pretty big change for me and I just want to be sure I am in full step.

Thanks and God bless

Without going into a discussion on the history of the Articles of Religion, most Anglicans view them as an historical artifact only. They are not binding on anybody except I think Ordained Priests in England.

 

[Yardstick]

The article of religion were kind of a way for the Anglican church to say "up yours" to the Roman Catholic Church.

As an Anglo-Catholic I'd like to welcome you to STR!

 

[0-2Continuum]

As an Anglo-Catholic I view the Articles of Religion as important as historical documents (notice their place in the 1979 BCP) that reflect the time period from which they came. they are not binding nor definitive in matters of doctrine.

I am jealous that you have access to the Advent in Boston.

 

[boswd]

thaniks everyone for your responses, I had a feeling it was like that. I'm really excited. I love the Methodist Church but I think I have grown as much as I can in that Church. The Anglo-Catholic, Catholic and Orthodox Churches seem, at least to me, brings you to another level in this journey.

 

[boswd]

As an Anglo-Catholic I view the Articles of Religion as important as historical documents (notice their place in the 1979 BCP) that reflect the time period from which they came. they are not binding nor definitive in matters of doctrine.

I am jealous that you have access to the Advent in Boston.

Is the Advent a certain sect of Anglo-Catholic Worldwide or is this particular Church close by to my work the same as other Anglo-Catholic.

I was talking to a lady who is in charge of guided tours of the place and she said they are held to the Oxford Movement and this is how their liturgy and theology will always be. I loved that. But does that mean all Anglo-Catholics are of the Oxford movement?

A

 

[Polycarp1]

Is the Advent a certain sect of Anglo-Catholic Worldwide or is this particular Church close by to my work the same as other Anglo-Catholic.

I was talking to a lady who is in charge of guided tours of the place and she said they are held to the Oxford Movement and this is how their liturgy and theology will always be. I loved that. But does that mean all Anglo-Catholics are of the Oxford movement?

A

The Church of the Advent is a Boston parish church that is famously "High Church" almost to the extreme. There is a tongue-in-cheek joke that when the Pope has questions on proper Catholic ceremonial, he calls the Rector of the Church of the Advent for advice.

As for the Articles of Religion, they were written at a time when there was a strong effort to retain the quasi-Calvinist Puritan element of the Church of England within the Church. (It was partly successful; there are a lot of Low Church parishes in England.) But they have a Calvinist cast to them that is defiant towards Rome and irenic towards Geneva. It should also be pointed out that the anti-Catholic tone is addressed to abusive conditions in the pre-Reformation Church -- today's Catholic need not be insulted by them, becaue the Counter-Reformation (then going on) cleaned them up. But they do need to be read in their historical context -- they were written in an effort to be inclusive, particularly towards the Puritans. And it shows.

 

[Polycarp1]

thaniks everyone for your responses, I had a feeling it was like that. I'm really excited. I love the Methodist Church but I think I have grown as much as I can in that Church. The Anglo-Catholic, Catholic and Orthodox Churches seem, at least to me, brings you to another level in this journey.

You know that the Articles of Religion found in older Methodist publications are John Wesley's selection from the Anglican Articles (plus one thing added in in 1939 at the behest of the old Methodist Protestant Church which was one of the three merging churches that formed the Methodist Church which existed from 1939 to 1967 when the Evangelical United Brethren merged with it to form today's United Methodist Church. (My wife and I were raised Methodist, and converted.)

 

[boswd]

Awesome, thanks, Yeah I noticed that about the Advent, from their website and visiting it in person. This place is really really amazing.

 

[Cjwinnit]

...So are the Articles of Religion, Dogma upheld by all Episcopalions / Anglo Catholic Churchs? Some things seem to be of the Contrary.
I hope someone can help, this is a pretty big change for me and I just want to be sure I am in full step.

The Articles were written at a time of great religious upheaval and many of the abuses and problems that the Articles were written to address no longer exist. However, many of the Articles do not need looking at from a historical context (Article I starts: "There is but one living and true God,...").

I've never been to nor heard of an Anglican church where lay members had to explicitly agree to them before joining.

 

[Albion]

So this brings to my question, after going through the Articles of Religion there are a few that find me a bit odd, for example the saying Statues and Icons are basically repugnant but after going to the above said Churchs and Trinity Church Boston I found that all had a great deal of statues and Icons.

This appears to be a misunderstanding, in that statues and icons are not identified as repugnant. When they are misused, that is what is repugnant.

The Intercession of Saints, seems to be forbidden, but as there is a poll here and on some Episcopalian Websties it will explain why they pray to Mary and the Saints for Intercession.

That is correct. Many Anglicans do not adhere to the Articles of Religion or, for that matter, to the Ecumenical Creeds or to the plain teaching of Scripture. This was not always the way it was, but liberal theology has transformed many churches in recent times.

Lastly Free Will vs. Pre Destination. The Artlices seem to really embrace the Calvin view of this topic. But having been on this board long enough especially in the war torn GT section It does not seem to be embraced by the Anglican's there except for a few.

As with many other doctrinal controversies, Anglican are to be found on both sides of this issue. However, the Article in question does not advocate Predestination in the strict Calvinist sense. As you probably know, the Articles often take a middle ground between the extremes, and this particular Article does it with excruciating care. I'd say to re-read it with real caution and without any preconception about what it is going to state. Unfortunately, the title of the Article tends to mislead people about what follows in the text itself.

So are the Articles of Religion, Dogma upheld by all Episcopalions / Anglo Catholic Churchs?

No. They are upheld in some Episcopal and Anglican churches but--in my experience--in no church that styles itself as "Anglo-Catholic."

 

[Secundulus]

No. They are upheld in some Episcopal and Anglican churches but--in my experience--in no church that styles itself as "Anglo-Catholic."

I agree. Anglo-Catholics today do not follow the 39 Articles but rather adhere more closely to Roman beliefs and practices.

 

[Albion]

Hi, Sec.

And maybe we should also clarify for our friend Boswd that all these churches are Episcopal or Anglican. The word "Anglo-Catholic" refers, as you know well yourself, to a perspective on the nature of the faith which is held by some Anglican people and churches.

In other words, there is no "Anglo-Catholic Church," but there are Anglican churches which are Anglo-Catholic in belief. Most of the time they are also more "Catholic" in practice or style, which we often call "High Church."

 

[Secundulus]

Hi, Sec.

And maybe we should also clarify for our friend Boswd that all these churches are Episcopal or Anglican. The word "Anglo-Catholic" refers, as you know well yourself, to a perspective on the nature of the faith which is held by some Anglican people and churches.

In other words, there is no "Anglo-Catholic Church," but there are Anglican churches which are Anglo-Catholic in belief. Most of the time they are also more "Catholic" in practice or style, which we often call "High Church."

Yes, this is true. There is currently only Anglican or Episcopal.

 

[boswd]

Thanks guys, you all have been a great deal of help.

 

[boswd]

I agree. Anglo-Catholics today do not follow the 39 Articles but rather adhere more closely to Roman beliefs and practices.

The Church of the Advent here is Boston would be described as that. They are extremely High. I was talking to a lady who ran the tours of the church as she said their theology lines up closer to the Roman Catholic Church then to most Epicoplaians even though they are listed as an Episcopalian Church.

 

[Secundulus]

The Church of the Advent here is Boston would be described as that. They are extremely High. I was talking to a lady who ran the tours of the church as she said their theology lines up closer to the Roman Catholic Church then to most Epicoplaians even though they are listed as an Episcopalian Church.

There is another category also, although it is a minority and are "red-headed stepchildren" in Anglicanism.

These are the Anglo-Papalists like me. see Anglo-Papalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Like many other Anglo-Catholics, Anglo-Papalists make use of the rosary, benediction and other Catholic devotions. Some have regarded Thomas Cranmer as a heretic and his first Prayer Book as an expression of Zwinglian doctrine (as did Gregory Dix in his pamphlet "Dixit Cranmer et non Timuit"). They have actively worked for the reunion of the Church of England with the Holy See, as the logical objective of the Oxford Movement."
​

As indicated before, none of these terms are official subdivisions but rather define a theology and ecclesiology.

 

[Timothy]

The 39 Articles, like every other document ever written in the history of time including the Bible, needs to be understood within the bounds of its historical and social context, in the case of the Articles of Religion the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries of England.

And that's another important note. They are the Articles of Religion. They are to do with the setting up and maintenance of the local Church in accordance with how the Church in England believed it should be in that time, they are /not/ articles of faith. The definitive articles of faith are the creeds. The 39 Articles were created to try and deal with some of the significant theological errors of their time, and perhaps went slightly overboard. I think they are certainly of value to try and learn from--certainly we can learn a great deal from the English Reformation about trying to line up our entire theologies behind Scripture even if the Articles themselves are perhaps a little reactionary and too harsh.

 

[boswd]

There is another category also, although it is a minority and are "red-headed stepchildren" in Anglicanism.

These are the Anglo-Papalists like me. see Anglo-Papalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Like many other Anglo-Catholics, Anglo-Papalists make use of the rosary, benediction and other Catholic devotions. Some have regarded Thomas Cranmer as a heretic and his first Prayer Book as an expression of Zwinglian doctrine (as did Gregory Dix in his pamphlet "Dixit Cranmer et non Timuit"). They have actively worked for the reunion of the Church of England with the Holy See, as the logical objective of the Oxford Movement."
​

As indicated before, none of these terms are official subdivisions but rather define a theology and ecclesiology.

Yeah I would really really interested in your Church. I looked online and there isn't one that is close to where I live. The closest to that level of High Church is the Advent which for me is only good for weekday Mass at 12 but pretty much out of the way for Sunday service. I just went to an EO service this past Sunday, really enjoyed that as well.

I wish your branch would build a church closer to my area. I looked at their website, and I like the looks of it alot.

 

[Secundulus]

Yeah I would really really interested in your Church. I looked online and there isn't one that is close to where I live. The closest to that level of High Church is the Advent which for me is only good for weekday Mass at 12 but pretty much out of the way for Sunday service. I just went to an EO service this past Sunday, really enjoyed that as well.

I wish your branch would build a church closer to my area. I looked at their website, and I like the looks of it alot.

We are pretty sparse and spread all over the USA. Most of our membership is actually overseas in third world countries.

If we ever come to an agreement with Rome then I think we might grow in the USA. If not, then we'll probably dither along as we are now. The problem with continuing Churches in the USA is that they schismed from the Anglican Communion and then proceeded to start schisming from each other.

So, now in the USA we have a multitude of different "so called" Anglican jurisdictions all competing for the same demographic in a rapidly secularizing country that isn't particularly interested in Christianity. All the while, the men in purple refuse to talk to each other.

This is our unfortunate reality.