'arsenokoitai' means 'temple prostitute' ?

[Stinker]

by: Stinker

Early commentaries on I Corinthians related "arsenokoitai" to male temple prostitutes and to men having sex with boys. (Idolatrous prostitution and pedophilia are always wrong for those seeking to honor God.)

Homosexual relationships were known in the Greco-Roman culture of Paul's day. The Greek word commonly used in reference to adult male same sex partners was "arrenokoites." Paul did not use this word. Instead, he created his own, "arsenokoitai." If Paul had intended to condemn all adult male same sex partners, he would have used the common word for it.

Your sources?

Just type in the word arrenokoitai and after checking that, type in the word arrenokoites.

 

[filosofer]

Just for clarification, Paul did not "invent" the word. The word ARSENOKOITES appears among Imperial poets at the same time that Paul is writing this letter. Also, the two components that form this compound are found together in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

The word ARSENOKOITES "means one who anally penetrates another during sex, and appears to include rape. It does not apply exclusively to males as the receptors, as it was also used for anal pentration of women, e.g. Migne Patrologia Graeca 82." (Dr. Anne Nyland, The Source, p. 421). Word also occurs in 1 Timothy 1:10.

In Christ's love,
filo

 

[Stinker]

Just for clarification, Paul did not "invent" the word. The word ARSENOKOITES appears among Imperial poets at the same time that Paul is writing this letter. Also, the two components that form this compound are found together in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

The word ARSENOKOITES "means one who anally penetrates another during sex, and appears to include rape. It does not apply exclusively to males as the receptors, as it was also used for anal pentration of women, e.g. Migne Patrologia Graeca 82." (Dr. Anne Nyland, The Source, p. 421). Word also occurs in 1 Timothy 1:10.

In Christ's love,
filo

What Imperial poets? These are pagans?

The implication of this is, is that you have pagans using the Jewish LXX as their language.

 

[filosofer]

What Imperial poets? These are pagans?

The implication of this is, is that you have pagans using the Jewish LXX as their language.

No, you are reading too much into the post. Because pagans were using the same term at the approximate same time means that Paul is not inventing words in a vacuum.

And there is no implication that "pagans were using the Jewish LXX as their language". How would you come to that conclusion based on what I wrote?

In Christ's love,
filo

 

[Stinker]

I cannot locate the author Anne Nyland nor the work that she has on this subject.

If you know what Imperial poets she is referring to, please post and where we can check.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Just for clarification, Paul did not "invent" the word. The word ARSENOKOITES appears among Imperial poets at the same time that Paul is writing this letter. Also, the two components that form this compound are found together in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

The word ARSENOKOITES "means one who anally penetrates another during sex, and appears to include rape. It does not apply exclusively to males as the receptors, as it was also used for anal pentration of women, e.g. Migne Patrologia Graeca 82." (Dr. Anne Nyland, The Source, p. 421). Word also occurs in 1 Timothy 1:10.

In Christ's love,
filo

That contradicts not only the meaning of "arsenov" but also the context of how arsenokoites was used in several ancient source documents I have cited as exclusively among men. So your Dr.Nyland is a quack.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I could not find "Migne Patrologia Graeca 82" among any classical greek documents or papyri or renaissance material.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cache/perscoll_Greco-Roman.html

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Just type in the word arrenokoitai and after checking that, type in the word arrenokoites.

It doesn't surprise me you can't back up your claims. The fact is that arrenokoites is the same as arsenokoites per Liddell, Robert Scott:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057&query=id%3D%2336910&word=sodomite

 

[Stinker]

It doesn't surprise me you can't back up your claims. The fact is that arrenokoites is the same as arsenokoites per Liddell, Robert Scott:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057&query=id%3D%2336910&word=sodomite

This just goes to show that they were willing to sacrifice their honor and in place of it add their blind bigotry. I think that they thought the day would never come where the common people would possess the technology to check their error.

If these supposed 'scholars' were willing to try to do this to sacred texts, one has to wonder what else may have been tainted with prejudice in the texts!

Thank God for the Internet!

 

[filosofer]

I cannot locate the author Anne Nyland nor the work that she has on this subject.

Dr. Ann Nyland, served on the faculty in the Department of Classics and Ancient History at the University of New England, Australia. Her research field is Greek lexicography from Homeric to Hellenistic times. She has published academic papers in the fields of Hittite and Greek lexicography.

The Source, published in 2004, is a compilation - her translation of the New Testament, as well as her extended lexicographic notes on the text.

Because something can't be found on the internet doesn't diminish its value or insight.

Also, I don't agree with her on several issues, but there are maybe 1-2 people in the world who might know more about Greek lexicography than she. So, it is worth investigating, rather than dismissing out of hand because a 10 minute internet search failed to show anything. But just so you know, it can be done:

Better Bible Blog

Smith & Stirling

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Dr. Ann Nyland, served on the faculty in the Department of Classics and Ancient History at the University of New England, Australia. Her research field is Greek lexicography from Homeric to Hellenistic times. She has published academic papers in the fields of Hittite and Greek lexicography.

The Source, published in 2004, is a compilation - her translation of the New Testament, as well as her extended lexicographic notes on the text.

Because something can't be found on the internet doesn't diminish its value or insight.

Also, I don't agree with her on several issues, but there are maybe 1-2 people in the world who might know more about Greek lexicography than she. So, it is worth investigating, rather than dismissing out of hand because a 10 minute internet search failed to show anything. But just so you know, it can be done:

Better Bible Blog

Smith & Stirling

Reviewing your link. There is a difference between claissical Greek and Koine Greek used in biblical text and she notes it. "Another difference - I, as a translator, am a Classical Greek scholar formally trained in all Greek dialects, not a theologian." One Greek scholar writes that if you read the same Greek word in the biblical text it has a different meaning than in the Classical text.

So with no publication of this text she has all to herself and no scholarly collaboration with her work... all she has is her own assertion and this contradicts the known sources.

 

[filosofer]

Reviewing your link. There is a difference between claissical Greek and Koine Greek used in biblical text and she notes it. "Another difference - I, as a translator, am a Classical Greek scholar formally trained in all Greek dialects, not a theologian." One Greek scholar writes that if you read the same Greek word in the biblical text it has a different meaning than in the Classical text.

Many Greek scholars (with whom I have studied) do not agree with the last assertion, unless context demands it. Gilderslieve was probably the premier Classical Greek scholar of past generations, and that didn't negate his stature within Biblical studies. It might be good if a few "theologians" immersed themselves in Greek outside the NT.

So with no publication of this text she has all to herself and no scholarly collaboration with her work... all she has is her own assertion and this contradicts the known sources.

hmmmm, The Source New Tesdtament isn't published? Did you look at the second link for the hard copy or eBook?

 

[Stinker]

Dr. Ann Nyland, served on the faculty in the Department of Classics and Ancient History at the University of New England, Australia. Her research field is Greek lexicography from Homeric to Hellenistic times. She has published academic papers in the fields of Hittite and Greek lexicography.

The Source, published in 2004, is a compilation - her translation of the New Testament, as well as her extended lexicographic notes on the text.

Because something can't be found on the internet doesn't diminish its value or insight.

Also, I don't agree with her on several issues, but there are maybe 1-2 people in the world who might know more about Greek lexicography than she. So, it is worth investigating, rather than dismissing out of hand because a 10 minute internet search failed to show anything. But just so you know, it can be done:




Better Bible Blog

Smith & Stirling

If you do not want a biased Bible, the astute Bible student will always tell you to never use a Bible translated by one person or a group representing one denomination or one view.

 

[filosofer]

If you do not want a biased Bible, the astute Bible student will always tell you to never use a Bible translated by one person or a group representing one denomination or one view.

If you knew me and my background, you would know that is not a problem. I study the Hebrew and Greek, and "use" about 25+ English translations, all with the intent of better understanding the text of Scripture.

BTW if you want to read a couple of excellent, one-author translations try Martin Luther's Die Bibel, and William Beck's An American Translation.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

hmmmm, The Source New Tesdtament isn't published? Did you look at the second link for the hard copy or eBook?

No, I was referring to Migne Patrologia Graeca 82. We are supposed to accept that this woman has cornered this new found historical document all to herself and is going to free the world from centuries of theological tyranny?

 

[Philip]

No, I was referring to Migne Patrologia Graeca 82. We are supposed to accept that this woman has cornered this new found historical document all to herself and is going to free the world from centuries of theological tyranny?

Are you serious? You've never head of Jacques-Paul Migne? The famous 19th century Catholic priest? His two most well known works are Patrologiae Latinae Cursus Completus and Patrologiae Graecae Cursus Completus.
Five seconds at Google will help.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Are you serious? You've never head of Jacques-Paul Migne? The famous 19th century Catholic priest? His two most well known works are Patrologiae Latinae Cursus Completus and Patrologiae Graecae Cursus Completus.
Five seconds at Google will help.

From one of those at Google:

"The Patrologia Graeca includes the printed works of Greek Christian writers down to the Council of Florence (1438-39). The intention was to choose for the new issues the best editions of each author, with suitable introductions and critical additions, which plan, unfortunately, was not always realized. The printing, too, was frequently unsatisfactory, and in most of the Migne reprints we find a number of misprints and errata."

The earliest Greek in that work is 1438, that is hardly rivaling all of the source documents I provided that are much much much closer to the first cent...and without the errors and misprints too. This is not what a rational thinker would throw aside all of the better material scholars have used to support arsenokoites with for this one piece of questionable contradiction.

 

[Philip]

The earliest Greek in that work is 1438, that is hardly rivaling all of the source documents I provided that are much much much closer to the first cent...

Perhaps you should review the actual work before making incorrect statements about. Patrologia Graeca contains the Greek writings of the Church (both Greek and Latin Fathers) from the First Century until the time of the council of Florence.

Whether or not you choose to use this resource is up to you, but the fact that it is a well-known and widely used collection of writings calls into doubt the scholarship of your comments such as

So with no publication of this text she has all to herself and no scholarly collaboration with her work... all she has is her own assertion and this contradicts the known sources.

and

No, I was referring to Migne Patrologia Graeca 82. We are supposed to accept that this woman has cornered this new found historical document all to herself and is going to free the world from centuries of theological tyranny?

The fact is Patrologia Graeca is published (it occupies about 160 volumes) and is readily accessible to scholars. Indeed, I believe it is even available electronically. It is not a text that she 'has all to herself'. Nor is it a 'new found historical document'. It is a widely known and used collection of even more widely known and used documents.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Perhaps you should review the actual work before making incorrect statements about. Patrologia Graeca contains the Greek writings of the Church (both Greek and Latin Fathers) from the First Century until the time of the council of Florence.

Whether or not you choose to use this resource is up to you, but the fact that it is a well-known and widely used collection of writings calls into doubt the scholarship of your comments such as



and



The fact is Patrologia Graeca is published (it occupies about 160 volumes) and is readily accessible to scholars. Indeed, I believe it is even available electronically. It is not a text that she 'has all to herself'. Nor is it a 'new found historical document'. It is a widely known and used collection of even more widely known and used documents.

I was referring to her own statements that the work was not published. I saw vols to 81 but not 82 as she used.

This work is said to be down to the council of Florence, not up to it.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Here is another site that notes the poor text used and many errors in Migne's work:

"In spite of the fact that the two series published by Jacques-Paul Migne are over a century old, they remain the most comprehensive collections of patristic texts. Greek works are accompanied by Latin translations. Unfortunately the texts which Migne collected and reprinted were not always the best available; there are also numerous typographical errors."

http://www.utoronto.ca/stmikes/library/research_guides/rgpatristics.htm