Aron Ra destroys Hovind

[Jimmy D]

I disagree, as it was a rebuttal. But lets agree for a moment. Eve listened for but a moment and you would listen indefinitely. I hope you will reconsider privately how you would respond to such a hypothetical, because it spiritually happens within us all. As a member of God's kingdom we are often subjected to such intrusions, but how could we willingly entertain such a guest? Your comment that you would entertain satan is rated a winner by non believers but what are you winning as a child of God in choosing to entertain satan?

Mmmm, but maybe satan is more insidious than you give him credit for, he could be masquerading as a christian, asking inane questions and steering us away from the crux of the debate... i.e the stupidity of Hovind's arguments.

I mean, if anything could drive rational people away from the church it must be Young Earth Creationism right? I should imagine satan would be doing his best to promote it.

 

[Sanoy]

Opponents

I chose the word proponents because I wanted to include Kent. I want better on both sides, not just one side.

 

[Sanoy]

I mean, if anything could drive rational people away from the church it must be Young Earth Creationism right? I should imagine satan would be doing his best to promote it.

I think young earth creationism fails to even be biblically grounded. I have wondered that and I have also wondered if they would survive without it. So I try not to disturb it in the hopes that outsiders will be able to distinguish it as a subset of belief that is not a part of the theological core. You really only find it in specific forum sections throughout the internet and those sections are usually occupied by those who are there to fight against it rather than seekers. For the most part you really have to kind of seek out that type of dialogue.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess I have just been sheltered with a higher standard of debate proponents.

It was not a debate. It was a discussion. The difference being that the hard rules of a debate were not in play. As a result when Kent dodged or was dishonest in any way at all Aron was free to interrupt and correct him.

By the end Kent is just a sputtering mess. Kent is too used to having a debate where he can spout lies and misconceptions with total freedom. In this video as soon as he began one of his insanely wrong claims Aron jumped in and shot him down before he got anywhere.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think young earth creationism fails to even be biblically grounded. I have wondered that and I have also wondered if they would survive without it. So I try not to disturb it in the hopes that outsiders will be able to distinguish it as a subset of belief that is not a part of the theological core. You really only find it in specific forum sections throughout the internet and those sections are usually occupied by those who are there to fight against it rather than seekers. For the most part you really have to kind of seek out that type of dialogue.

I don't think that that was his point. Creationism is so obviously wrong that it drives rational people away from Christianity. It does not matter if it is biblically grounded or not. If a person holds a clearly false belief and tries to convert others to his way of thinking he will not convert any rational thinkers.

 

[Sanoy]

It was not a debate. It was a discussion. The difference being that the hard rules of a debate were not in play. As a result when Kent dodged or was dishonest in any way at all Aron was free to interrupt and correct him.

By the end Kent is just a sputtering mess. Kent is too used to having a debate where he can spout lies and misconceptions with total freedom. In this video as soon as he began one of his insanely wrong claims Aron jumped in and shot him down before he got anywhere.

I don't doubt it. I haven't seen this, but I have seen some of Hovinds stuff post prison and I imagine how it went down just as you describe.

 

[Sanoy]

I don't think that that was his point. Creationism is so obviously wrong that it drives rational people away from Christianity. It does not matter if it is biblically grounded or not. If a person holds a clearly false belief and tries to convert others to his way of thinking he will not convert any rational thinkers.

Outside of these forums where you seek this type of dialogue out, where do you encounter missionaries of a young earth? I don't mean missionaries of the Gospel that also happen to believe in a young earth, but missionaries of a young earth. I haven't encountered any so I don't understand the experience.

Also happy birthday.

 

[Skreeper]

I don't think that that was his point. Creationism is so obviously wrong that it drives rational people away from Christianity. It does not matter if it is biblically grounded or not. If a person holds a clearly false belief and tries to convert others to his way of thinking he will not convert any rational thinkers.

Good to have you back, buddy. It's been a while since you posted something on this site.

 

[Jimmy D]

Outside of these forums where you seek this type of dialogue out, where do you encounter missionaries of a young earth? I don't mean missionaries of the Gospel that also happen to believe in a young earth, but missionaries of a young earth. I haven't encountered any so I don't understand the experience.

I never meet these types in real life, with the exception of the Jehovah's Witnesses who have attempted to tell me why evolution doesn't occur. I doubt that they encounter many people who are experienced in such debates as I soon put them in their place .

I live in the UK though, where creationism isn't so much of a thing.

Based on other forum members experiences Creationists seem to be a lot more vocal in the US with a political agenda to push. Are you saying that you haven't come across organizations like Answers in Genesis, The Ark Encounter, etc, etc?

 

[Jimmy D]

I don't think that that was his point. Creationism is so obviously wrong that it drives rational people away from Christianity. It does not matter if it is biblically grounded or not. If a person holds a clearly false belief and tries to convert others to his way of thinking he will not convert any rational thinkers.

Correct...

and Happy Birthday!

 

[Sanoy]

I never meet these types in real life, with the exception of the Jehovah's Witnesses who have attempted to tell me why evolution doesn't occur. I doubt that they encounter many people who are experienced in such debates as I soon put them in their place .

I live in the UK though, where creationism isn't so much of a thing.

Based on other forum members experiences Creationists seem to be a lot more vocal in the US with a political agenda to push. Are you saying that you haven't come across organizations like Answers in Genesis, The Ark Encounter, etc, etc?

I have but only because I looked them up or looked up the subject in google or youtube and they came up in the search.

 

[PsychoSarah]

How could an atheist be a satanist anyway? By definition, I mean.

Because most satanists don't literally believe in satan and worship it. A link to the church of satan where they clarify:
F.A.Q. Fundamental Beliefs | churchofsatan.com

 

[Speedwell]

Because most satanists don't literally believe in satan and worship it. A link to the church of satan where they clarify:
F.A.Q. Fundamental Beliefs | churchofsatan.com

OK, I get it. I actually met LaVey a long time ago and he struck me as an humanist with attitude, kind of like the bikers who wear swastika emblems--not because they're Nazis, they wouldn't dream of it, but because they know it annoys people.

 

[PsychoSarah]

100%, I can't fathom a logical reason to literally worship satan. Any description of the being is negative, and there are no lasting benefits to worshipping satan over Yahweh. Satan is apparently equally unresponsive, since a common Google search is "how to sell your soul" and there aren't a ton of people winning lotteries or suddenly digging up chests full of gold in their back yard.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

100%, I can't fathom a logical reason to literally worship satan. Any description of the being is negative, and there are no lasting benefits to worshipping satan over Yahweh. Satan is apparently equally unresponsive, since a common Google search is "how to sell your soul" and there aren't a ton of people winning lotteries or suddenly digging up chests full of gold in their back yard.

Worshipping Satan marks people out as different, distinctive, and opposed to a mostly Christian establishment. People who choose to worship Satan therefore place themselves in a counter-culture, which they will derive some sort of satisfaction and feeling of belonging from.

I don't believe that a benefit or even perceived benefit being psychological means that pursuing that benefit is necessarily illogical.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Satanist don't believe in those things either as a central belief.

Then why is it even relevant?

As I said I don't reject his conclusions by his appearance.

Then why is it even relevant?

Bozo the phd clown could have a good argument, but he can make that argument without dressing like a clown.

To please you?

If Kent dressed up like Jesus to debate I wouldn't watch it either. That kinda of sillyness should really be avoided in a debate. I probably wouldn't watch Kent debate anyone anyway but certainly not dressed up as Jesus.

Great. AronRa isn't "dressing up" though.

Anyway, I suggest you stop judging by appearances.

 

[AnotherAtheist]

Anyway, I suggest you stop judging by appearances.

At present I'm judging Aron Ra by the preface to his book Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism where he describes his path towards where he is now. Which I think is brilliant, and I wish that a lot of people in the world would read it.

 

[Sanoy]

Then why is it even relevant?



Then why is it even relevant?



To please you?



Great. AronRa isn't "dressing up" though.

Anyway, I suggest you stop judging by appearances.

breathe...just breathe.

 

[tas8831]

Mmmm, but maybe satan is more insidious than you give him credit for, he could be masquerading as a christian, asking inane questions and steering us away from the crux of the debate... i.e the stupidity of Hovind's arguments.

I mean, if anything could drive rational people away from the church it must be Young Earth Creationism right? I should imagine satan would be doing his best to promote it.

Interesting - I saw a debate - live - between Hovind and a bio prof at a small college about 20 years ago. Hovind got caught in a lie, and instead of admitting it, or claiming he had made a mistake, he just pranced across the stage holding his bible aloft, declaring that he knows THE TRUTH! The bussed-in crowd loved it. When it was his opponent's turn to speak, he said something like "This is why I left Christianity..."

 

[HitchSlap]

Interesting - I saw a debate - live - between Hovind and a bio prof at a small college about 20 years ago. Hovind got caught in a lie, and instead of admitting it, or claiming he had made a mistake, he just pranced across the stage holding his bible aloft, declaring that he knows THE TRUTH! The bussed-in crowd loved it. When it was his opponent's turn to speak, he said something like "This is why I left Christianity..."

This is why the classic debate format doesn't work with creationists. They are allowed to lie without being called out on it. The discussion format allows one to be immediately called out on their BS in real time. Hovind was forced to clarify his statements before proceeding. Unfortunately, a conversation that should have only taken fifteen minutes had to drag on for over two hours.