Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

[childeye 2]

You don't understand armininan theology. No one saves themselves. Why does God ask us to believe if belief is just something God zaps us with? What would be the point? Why does Jesus commend people for thier faith and chide others for thier lack of faith?

I've been reading the back and forth here. I hope you don't mind if I put forth a thought concerning faith and lack of faith. I do not think that Jesus commended people or chided them for their faith as if they themselves were personally responsible for their faith or lack thereof. I believe that faith is all the more present where people are lowly and poor. Hence the Gospel is good news to the poor. The destitute tend to turn more to God for hope, which would also fit well with many of the first will be last. I also think that it only serves to obscure the point, when characterizing this concept as God arbitrarily choosing hell for some and Abraham's bosom for the other.

 

[childeye 2]

Really? We are all given the same choice paul was, just not usually as dramatic. Paul could have stayed Saul and chosen blindness. We've probably all known people who had a dramatic revelation from God, but eventually fell into soul amnesia and walked away from the truth they were given.

Respectfully, it is not a provable assertion that Paul could have stayed Saul, and the evidence shows otherwise. Let us remember that he transformed from willing to kill people who preached the Gospel, to willing to be killed so as to preach the Gospel. So it's not as if Saul saw an option when his blindness was removed. Having said that, I do believe that people can and do walk away from the truth according to some type of amnesia. I believe that it is the course of a vanity in the creature wherein people lose sight from where they came from, begin to take God for granted, and gradually lose the capacity for thankfulness.

 

[Sound Doctrine]

The three wills as taught in Scripture:

The Bible teaches us of three wills: The will of man, the will of Jesus, and the will of the Father. They are distinctly different.
Man’s Will: "1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Psalm 53:1-3.
“10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Romans 3:10-12.
“7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." - Romans 8:7-8.
Our wills are not free, but a slave to sin. The reference of taking of the water freely in Revelation 21:6 - “6 And he said unto me, ‘It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.'” is when the saints are already raptured incorruptible, in glory; not now, while still corruptible. We start out in the fleshly, carnal mind, not able to come to Christ of our own volition because Jesus says that none do. Period.

Jesus' Will: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9.
Note that His promise is to us-ward (believers), not to all people, just the believers.
"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people." - Luke 2:8.
“15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” - John 3:15-17.
These verses are often confused with preaching free will, but they say nothing of will, free or otherwise. They teach salvation by belief. Whosoever believes shall be saved. Whosoever won't believe, won't be saved. These are facts, future tense, not speaking of our will as being in control. Jesus' will is to save the whole world.

The Father's Will: "38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40.
In John 17 Jesus prays to the Father, not for the world, but those whom the Father gives to Jesus out of the world, not only up to that time, but for all believers in the future as well (verses 20-21).
" 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." - John 6:37.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44.
"64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." - John 6:64-66.
"Jesus saith unto him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’" - John 14:6.

So, we can't come to the Father but by the Son, and we can't come unto the Son except it be given to us of the Father; that He draws us to the Son, that He gives us to the Son, who will not cast us out for any reason and will raise us up at the last day. That all that the Father gives to Jesus shall come to Him. There is not even an inkling of man's responsibility or will involved here, neither indeed can be; it is all the work of God. Three wills, starting with the Father, completed by the Son with the Holy Spirit, and man who strives with God in this life, even after salvation.

 

[Loren T.]

I believe that faith is all the more present where people are lowly and poor. Hence the Gospel is good news to the poor. The destitute tend to turn more to God for hope, which would also fit well with many of the first will be last. I also think that it only serves to obscure the point, when characterizing this concept as God arbitrarily choosing hell for some and Abraham's bosom for the other.

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

Was the Centurion poor? Why would Jesus be amazed at his faith, if faith is an irresistible gift from God?

John Piper once quoted Billy Graham, saying, "God will not reward fruitfulness, he will reward faithfulness." One has to wonder how a Calvinist like Piper can honestly speak those words, when according to his theology, the only way to have faith is if God irresistibly zaps you with faith. What is commendable about doing what you could not help but do? What Calvinist Jesus would have said would be something like: "Well, since God sovereignly gave you an extra dose of faith, which you had nothing to do with, I will do my father's will and heal your servant." But that's not what he said. Instead, he was amazed at this gentiles great faith.

 

[childeye 2]

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

Was the Centurion poor? Why would Jesus be amazed at his faith, if faith is an irresistible gift from God?

John Piper once quoted Billy Graham, saying, "God will not reward fruitfulness, he will reward faithfulness." One has to wonder how a Calvinist like Piper can honestly speak those words, when according to his theology, the only way to have faith is if God irresistibly zaps you with faith. What is commendable about doing what you could not help but do? What Calvinist Jesus would have said would be something like: "Well, since God sovereignly gave you an extra dose of faith, which you had nothing to do with, I will do my father's will and heal your servant." But that's not what he said. Instead, he was amazed at this gentiles great faith.

I grant you that the centurion is a strong example of faith, and I would surmise that you are meaning to imply that such faith was not because he was poor, at least not at the time; For he could have been born quite poor and rose through the ranks from a lowly soldier. When I examine the faith he displayed, I would note that his interest is for the wellbeing of his servant, which means that he is expressly empathetic towards the suffering of this one counted as beneath himself. It's as if he not only knows the value of a faithful servant, but loves him as he loves himself. Likewise I must note that while he regarded his house as unworthy of the Christ to enter, he had already concluded in his heart that the Christ could simply give a command and it would be done. He recognized that Jesus had power that could only come from Thee God. He knew God.

All of these sentiments are excellent examples of great faith. But it does not preclude what I am driving at, that faith doesn't come by choice or simply deciding to have it or not have it. After all when Jesus said that many of the first will be last, he clearly was implying that there would be exceptions. The case of the centurion does not mean that God is not with the poor over the rich, Proverbs 19:17. Matthew 11:5. Luke 4:18. James 2:5.

Nor does it mean that God does not choose the lowly over the mighty so that no flesh can glory, Romans 10:17, 1 Corinthians 1:27, 1 Corinthians 1:29.

 

[Loren T.]

that faith doesn't come by choice or simply deciding to have it or not have it.

Faith comes to the humble.
“this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word” Isaiah(66:2) and that “I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite” (57:15)

Matthew 18:4
Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. (James)

Humility leads to accepting God's grace. And we are told that we need to Humble ourselves, which implies we have that capability. The century is an example of someone who walked in the light that was given him. I believe that is why he was commended. It's really impossible to read the Bible very long and not conclude that we make choices that are real.

 

[childeye 2]

Faith comes to the humble.
“this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word” Isaiah(66:2) and that “I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite” (57:15)

Matthew 18:4
Whoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. (James)

Humility leads to accepting God's grace. And we are told that we need to Humble ourselves, which implies we have that capability. The century is an example of someone who walked in the light that was given him. I believe that is why he was commended. It's really impossible to read the Bible very long and not conclude that we make choices that are real.

I agree with much of what you say about humility. My issue is with how we apply the word "choice" or "choose" in our reasoning, since we tend to conflate choice/option with choice/decision and conclude that the will is free. To be clear I am hesitant to accept any reasoning that promotes a sentiment intent on finding a place for blame and accusation against others.

So please allow me to humbly point out, that a choice/decision is inevitable whether one wills to be humble or one wills to be proud, therefore a choice happening is no indicator that a person is free to choose to be either. Therefore, when I see scripture say to humble yourself, I consider it a warning to be wary of pride. It is ridiculous for me to assume that I can evaluate pride and humility presented before me as equal options, whereupon I deliberate over which is to be preferred, and upon deciding suddenly and instantly I become either proud or humble according to that decision.

 

[Loren T.]

Therefore, when I see scripture say to humble yourself, I consider it a warning to be wary of pride. It is ridiculous for me to assume that I can evaluate pride and humility presented before me as equal options, whereupon I deliberate over which is to be preferred, and upon deciding suddenly and instantly I become either proud or humble according to that decision

Even saying to be wary of pride indicates that you are making a choice, conscious or not. Usually, it is a series of small decisions to either listen to God or the adversary, that lead in one direction or the other.

 

[childeye 2]

Even saying to be wary of pride indicates that you are making a choice, conscious or not. Usually, it is a series of small decisions to either listen to God or the adversary, that lead in one direction or the other.

Because God said it, doesn't necessarily equate with I chose to hear it. That statement is from humility not pride. To assert that I could have not listened is not proof that I chose to listen and is evidence of pride. As I have already said, a choice is inevitable when two powers are vying for control in the heart and mind. But there is a difference in articulating it when viewed as a transformation happening from carnal to spiritual. The mistake is thinking that choices are proof of a free will as in fully capable of choosing either way, particularly when it is thereby the reasoning that undermines the reason for grace when seeing the fault in others.

The bottom line is do you know God like the centurion did, or do you know God like Saul thought he did, but found out that he didn't? To further elaborate upon what knowing God would entail; that He is the Love of others that we experience, and that He is trustworthy and gracious and merciful and understanding. What I am saying is that knowing God and not knowing God predetermines the choice/decision. We are all subject to the knowledge and ignorance of God.

 

[Loren T.]

What I am saying is that knowing God and not knowing God predetermines the choice/decision. We are all subject to the knowledge and ignorance of God.

And how does one come to know God or not know him? Why are we told not to harden our hearts? Hebrews 3:15 . Why was God angry at his people for hardening their hearts? Why did Jesus say that those who learn from the father come to him? Why does it say choose you this day whom you will serve? The whole of scripture assumes that we have limited, but real free will.

 

[Sound Doctrine]

1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-3

We must first be converted before we are humbled as little children. God first converts us by His election according to His purpose. Then we become humbled. We do not consciously make the effort. The problem with people who believe in free will is that they fail to see the Scriptures from God's perspective. God gives us Scriptures in man's perspective, but especially from His own perspective. We are able to see things from His perspective because we are His saints. Those who cannot see things from God's perspective are in real trouble.

According to 1 Corinthians 12-16 - "12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

 

[childeye 2]

And how does one come to know God or not know him?

This is an excellent question. I have asked many such questions and the answers I received are always believed to come through the Spirit of the Christ. If I am to elaborate upon what I believe I was taught, I would request that you keep in mind that the word "know" is subjective and relative, particularly when it pertains to certain accompanying sentiments that come with valuing someone's Person, such as a sincere praise, worship, and thankfulness. With that in mind, please considers these words from Romans 1:21: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God... These words are indicating that mankind knew God was the Creator, and also therefore that all invisible components of that which are counted as godliness in mankind, are attributable to Him as the Creator and not to the creature. Hence the creature knew God as Creator but did not esteem Him or glorify Him as God in their person. Mankind took God's attributes for granted in vanity, and were therefore unthankful to God.

Why are we told not to harden our hearts? Hebrews 3:15 .

Because if we do, we take God for granted in vanity and are unthankful for His Word.

Why was God angry at his people for hardening their hearts?

Because they did not esteem God as the Light of the soul. You might even say that they felt free to despise God's Word, (No offense intended since ignorance is never any true freedom).

Why did Jesus say that those who learn from the father come to him?

Because it was necessary that God provide the Rhema to recognize the Logos, and so that God would be glorified and not mankind.

Why does it say choose you this day whom you will serve?

Yes it says to choose, but of course it stands to reason that such a choice is only available to those who believe that God is untrustworthy, which is why I said in my prior post that knowing God and not knowing God predetermines the choice/decision. Please notice that this scripture begins with this premise "and if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord"...

The whole of scripture assumes that we have limited, but real free will.

Respectfully, we each have a will given to us by God, and that when first created in Adam, the will was innocent of any knowledge of good and evil and yet had the uncorrupted Character of God residing in the soul. That changed, and this knowledge has since altered the will to where we must choose between good and evil. In this context of what was corrupted, I believe the semantics show that freedom cannot be ascribed to this condition that now fosters vanity, other than to carry a negative connotation such as freedom from innocence, which was acquired only through some form of distrusting God in the first place. However, upon knowing God, I am fully on board with describing a will as free when it means that we now know to always trust God, which is a positive connotation of the word freedom. So I am free only when I value His word over all else. Otherwise one is actually implying that it's a good thing to be free to either not trust God or to trust God.

 

[Loren T.]

I don't see how any thing you have said changes the fact that we make a choice for evil or good. Perhaps you misunderstood me to say evil men could choose good without the spirit prompting them. Yes the spirit opens our eyes, but we are able to close them again if we want to. Otherwise there is no need to tell us not to harden our hearts. Yes, sin is bondage, which is why I say limited freedom. We can't merely will ourselves to be good, we must continue to walk in the spirit to do anything good.

The alternative is a world where we just dance to the pipers tune we are forced to dance to, and frankly, nothing matters. This may be the most de engergizing notion ever.

 

[DeaconDean]

Scripture makes it quite plain that faith is a necessity for salvation. It also makes it quite plain the faith does not Merit us anything. So why would we have any reason to brag?

Never disputed that.

But here again, what did you say?

"Those that do are chosen for salvation because of their faith."

Faith is something that is given, it is not something you bring into a relationship with God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

So where does grace come into play in a Calvinist system where God is going "Einie miny miny moe, I elect Joe and send Mel to hell"?

So, Joe gets chosen for no reason and mel gets hell for no reason. Seems like Joe would have reason to say "I'm special. God chose me. He must like me more than Mel."
And this is exactly the attitude I find so often with Calvinists. "God hates most people, but loves the elect."
Well, isn't that special?
Trouble is, it's not Biblical.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? ...

1 John 4:10

Do you suppose God expects us to love our enemies (unbelievers) when according to Calvinism, he hates them?

Do you know why God choses individual 1 over individual 2?

Neither do I. Its not my to question Him and His divine choice. Your never chosen "because of" your faith.

You and your weird view of Calvinism makes God sound like a little boy playing with a magnifying glass burning ants at will.

I do know that scriptures says we are chosen:

"after the counsel of his own will:"

when according to Calvinism, he hates them?

Now I'm going to call you out on that one.

Please produce any piece of literature from John Calvin where he says "God hates the non-elect".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[childeye 2]

I don't see how any thing you have said changes the fact that we make a choice for evil or good. Perhaps you misunderstood me to say evil men could choose good without the spirit prompting them. Yes the spirit opens our eyes, but we are able to close them again if we want to. Otherwise there is no need to tell us not to harden our hearts. Yes, sin is bondage, which is why I say limited freedom. We can't merely will ourselves to be good, we must continue to walk in the spirit to do anything good.

The alternative is a world where we just dance to the pipers tune we are forced to dance to, and frankly, nothing matters. This may be the most de engergizing notion ever.

I suppose I should tell you that I have studied semantics most of my life, and these studies include sophistry, (the art of fallacious argument), propaganda, and psychological manipulation. So I tend to scrutinize the meanings of words.

I do not like the term free will because it implies that people are in complete control of their will, and it is used to judge others through the following presumption: That they could have done the other. Some will go further and complicate the thought by saying, they could have done the other "if" they wanted to. I notice that the "if " presents a conditional component for the original statement to be true. So the statement is perceived by the hearer as "the person wants to do what is wrong since they could have wanted to do what is right." This is a logical fallacy called circular reasoning where the proof for the premise is formed by restating the premise. Notice that the circular reasoning becomes more apparent when reversed, "the person wants to do good because they could have wanted to do what is wrong". The statement now sounds less true even because the reason why people want to do what is right, is because of Love, and not simply because they could have wanted to do what is wrong.

However, you mention a limited free will and you further qualify what you mean by explaining that sin is bondage and that the Spirit opens our eyes, yet we can still close them "if" we want to. This means to me that while you recognize that blindness would inhibit one's freedom to control their own will, such as Saul thinking he was doing good while persecuting the Christ, you still somehow see choice as a valid premise for free will.

So I would assume that wanting to close one's eyes would constitute that part of the will which you describe as in bondage, and not the part that is free. And if I am right about that, this then brings me to the problem that arises in semantics when everyone keeps trying to prove a free will through examples of sin. So does your statement that "we can still close our eyes "if" we want to", prove to you that we have a free will? If so, then it's a contradiction to what you mean by a limited free will since it would only be proof of bondage.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that a person can be willingly ignorant and that this is actually what you are meaning to articulate. I would describe this condition as a person knowing that they are denying what is true, and I personally believe that it is a form of insanity or the ultimate commitment to darkness. So I would not describe it as an example of a free will, I would call it God sifting out the unredeemable elements.

Finally, I don't believe that nothing matters just because we are subject to a higher power. It matters that we recognize the value of knowing God and why His Word in our hearts is Life.

 

[Sound Doctrine]

In Romans 9:19-24, Paul rhetorically asked, “19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” God is the potter, we are the clay, and some He makes for honor and some for dishonor: Those who are saved for honor and those who are the unsaved to dishonor being fitted to destruction. Notice also that God is not willing to show His wrath on vessels of mercy, just on those fitted to destruction.

 

[Loren T.]

It matters that we recognize the value of knowing God and why His Word in our hearts is Life.

Which is why all your semantics really don't take us anywhere.. you still believe we have to do something, which is the same thing in different words.

 

[Loren T.]

Faith is something that is given, it is not something you bring into a relationship with God.

Which makes no sense whatsoever. "Jesus: I am amazed by the faith I just irresistibly caused you to have."

 

[Loren T.]

You and your weird view of Calvinism makes God sound like a little boy playing with a magnifying glass burning ants at will.

That is exactly the view of God calvinism inspires.