Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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I doubt this psalm was meant as a soteriology lesson, but it's interesting that it confirms, first, that the extent of the atonement is to all flesh, and then confirms that God brings people to him. Calvinist claim the atonement is limited to a select few and that God only draws those few.

To all flesh is Jesus' will. He came not to do His will, but the will of His Father. The Father's will is that of all that He gives to Jesus, He should lose nothing. To not believe this as stated in Scripture, but as meaning the Father gives all to Jesus, means one of two things: one either believes in universal salvation or one believes Jesus fails to do the will of His Father.
 
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Loren T.

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To all flesh is Jesus' will. He came not to do His will, but the will of His Father. The Father's will is that of all that He gives to Jesus, He should lose nothing. To not believe this as stated in Scripture, but as meaning the Father gives all to Jesus, means one of two things: one either believes in universal salvation or one believes Jesus fails to do the will of His Father.
When I read scripture, I read the whole section through to the end. I do not pick out a verse here and there, because it often gives a very false impression of what the entire passage is saying. When I read this whole section, I notice that "those given to me" in 37 are the same as those who "believe in him" in vs. 40.
Secondly, God's will is not always done on this earth, as the whole of scripture attests to. Why else would Jesus teach us to pray that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven? If one believes God's will is always accomplished, he would have to wonder why God spends so much time complaining about men disobeying him.
 
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DeaconDean

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As for me I'm not a fan people going to the Greek/Hebrew with everything claiming they have expertise in such. Now I go to the greek and hebrew as well but if everyone is seeking to build their case this way it can be pretty deceptive as people are biased and if people force their interpretations using English they most certainly will do the same with these other languages. Only difference is the poor ignorant soul who isn't up on deep study into such can be so very easily be swayed in a most unfair way.

As opposed to those who read the scriptures and insist that it taken "as is"?

I'm sorry if "taking somebody else's opinion" as to what the scriptures say isn't good enough.

In seminary I was talked into studying in the original languages for two reasons; 1) I don't have to rely on such and such, or some "versions" interpretation; and 2) I can translate it for myself to see what the scriptures say. (I have several mistakes/renderings in the KJV)

The original language of the Bible agrees with everything I said. Period.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Because God make salvation conditional, somehow God's grace is not involved? Nonsense. Makes one wonder why Jesus commended people for their faith if he was just zapping some with faith and passing by others. Faith is not a work, read Romans.

You are extremely funny.

You say this above, and just prior to it you say:

Those that do are chosen for salvation because of their faith.

Election based of faith. That puts the cart before the horse.

One of the hallmarks of Arminian theology:

Election of individuals based upon the foreknowledge of God of foreseen faith in individuals.

"To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere."

James Arminus, A Declaration of the Sentiments of James Arminus, Section 1, On Predestination, Pt. 5, My Own Sentiments on Predestination, Sub-Sect. IV.

Now whether you will admit it or not, what you have said is that God, by use of, or by virtue of His divine "foreknowledge" either knew who would or would not accept and believe, or looked foreward in time, saw who would or would not accept and believe, then based His election on that "foreknowledge".

Where in this grand scheme, does "grace" come into play? IT DOESN"T!

What you are telling me basically is because of foreseen faith, God chose some for salvation.

In other words, you have done, rather will do something, namely foreseen faith, that merits God's favor.

That will give you "bragging rights in heaven. "Oh look at me! I'm here because God saw I would have faith, accept and believe!"

Bull! That goes against what Paul said in Rom. 4:2.

And, according to Arminian theology, faith is what you bring into your relationship with God. It is what you do to "co-operate" with God, in bringing about your salvation.

Excuse me, but you have a Charlie Brown theology, wishy-washy.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Bobber

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As opposed to those who read the scriptures and insist that it taken "as is"?

I'm sorry if "taking somebody else's opinion" as to what the scriptures say isn't good enough.

In seminary I was talked into studying in the original languages for two reasons; 1) I don't have to rely on such and such, or some "versions" interpretation; and 2) I can translate it for myself to see what the scriptures say. (I have several mistakes/renderings in the KJV)

The original language of the Bible agrees with everything I said. Period.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah I get all that. All I'm saying it's mighty easy for people to deceive others by running to the other languages at every turn and I think most understand the point I'm trying to make.
 
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DeaconDean

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Yeah, yeah, yeah I get all that. All I'm saying it's mighty easy for people to deceive others by running to the other languages at every turn and I think most understand the point I'm trying to make.

My apologies then.

But reading your post "as is" came off as if you we condemning me for studying in the original languages. (And even then, original is not original. The MT of the OT today, came to us, some 1000 years after the OT canon closed)

"As for me I'm not a fan people going to the Greek/Hebrew with everything claiming they have expertise in such. Now I go to the greek and hebrew as well but if everyone is seeking to build their case this way it can be pretty deceptive as people are biased and if people force their interpretations using English they most certainly will do the same with these other languages.[/quote]

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL


The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.


But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.

The Bible doesn’t have all the answers. We shouldn’t make any assumptions as to why God created those who will burn because we don’t fully know His plan. Perhaps He wanted contrast to those who believe. Can you please explain 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4?
 
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Loren T.

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You are extremely funny.

You say this above, and just prior to it you say:



Election based of faith. That puts the cart before the horse.

One of the hallmarks of Arminian theology:

Election of individuals based upon the foreknowledge of God of foreseen faith in individuals.

"To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere."

James Arminus, A Declaration of the Sentiments of James Arminus, Section 1, On Predestination, Pt. 5, My Own Sentiments on Predestination, Sub-Sect. IV.

Now whether you will admit it or not, what you have said is that God, by use of, or by virtue of His divine "foreknowledge" either knew who would or would not accept and believe, or looked foreward in time, saw who would or would not accept and believe, then based His election on that "foreknowledge".

Where in this grand scheme, does "grace" come into play? IT DOESN"T!

What you are telling me basically is because of foreseen faith, God chose some for salvation.

In other words, you have done, rather will do something, namely foreseen faith, that merits God's favor.

That will give you "bragging rights in heaven. "Oh look at me! I'm here because God saw I would have faith, accept and believe!"

Bull! That goes against what Paul said in Rom. 4:2.

And, according to Arminian theology, faith is what you bring into your relationship with God. It is what you do to "co-operate" with God, in bringing about your salvation.

Excuse me, but you have a Charlie Brown theology, wishy-washy.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Scripture makes it quite plain that faith is a necessity for salvation. It also makes it quite plain the faith does not Merit us anything. So why would we have any reason to brag?
 
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Loren T.

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Now whether you will admit it or not, what you have said is that God, by use of, or by virtue of His divine "foreknowledge" either knew who would or would not accept and believe, or looked foreward in time, saw who would or would not accept and believe, then based His election on that "foreknowledge".

Where in this grand scheme, does "grace" come into play? IT DOESN"T!
So where does grace come into play in a Calvinist system where God is going "Einie miny miny moe, I elect Joe and send Mel to hell"?

So, Joe gets chosen for no reason and mel gets hell for no reason. Seems like Joe would have reason to say "I'm special. God chose me. He must like me more than Mel."
And this is exactly the attitude I find so often with Calvinists. "God hates most people, but loves the elect."
Well, isn't that special?
Trouble is, it's not Biblical.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? ...

1 John 4:10

Do you suppose God expects us to love our enemies (unbelievers) when according to Calvinism, he hates them?
 
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Billy Evmur

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So where does grace come into play in a Calvinist system where God is going "Einie miny miny moe, I elect Joe and send Mel to hell"?

So, Joe gets chosen for no reason and mel gets hell for no reason. Seems like Joe would have reason to say "I'm special. God chose me. He must like me more than Mel."
And this is exactly the attitude I find so often with Calvinists. "God hates most people, but loves the elect."
Well, isn't that special?
Trouble is, it's not Biblical.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? ...

1 John 4:10

Do you suppose God expects us to love our enemies (unbelievers) when according to Calvinism, he hates them?

Reject Calvin by all means but you can't reject Paul and he teaches not "eeny meeny miny mo" but "who He foreknew He also predestinated...chose, called, justified, glorified"

Not to be saved per se although we are saved but "to be conformed to the image of His Son" that's the bible predestination. It's not unto salvation per se.

Others may still be saved.
 
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Billy Evmur

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The Bible doesn’t have all the answers. We shouldn’t make any assumptions as to why God created those who will burn because we don’t fully know His plan. Perhaps He wanted contrast to those who believe. Can you please explain 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-4?

It may be true that some will go into eternal punishment, but you can't show any scripture to show that God either predestined that or wanted it.

The bible has everything we need to know.
 
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Loren T.

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Really when you think about it, if we could be saved of our own freewill what need was there for the cross?
No armininan says we are saved by our freewill. Only God saves. All we do is accept or reject the spirits leading.
 
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Billy Evmur

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They say they "chose Christ" but Jesus said "you did not choose Me but I chose you...."

Paul did not choose Christ, he chose to persecute Him...he even saw the godly Stephen martyred, probably saw Stephen do miracles and heard his wisdom.

Fact is God totally destroyed Paul's freewill on that road to Damascus, the lion became a mouse and squeaked "who are You Lord?"
 
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They say they "chose Christ" but Jesus said "you did not choose Me but I chose you...."

Paul did not choose Christ, he chose to persecute Him...he even saw the godly Stephen martyred, probably saw Stephen do miracles and heard his wisdom.

Fact is God totally destroyed Paul's freewill on that road to Damascus, the lion became a mouse and squeaked "who are You Lord?"

The context of that was directed to His 11 faithful apostles which He did personally hand pick each one of them. However it is possible that He was speaking about all who believe in Him. We really can’t be certain for sure but we do know that God does call everyone and wants everyone to be saved which is why Jesus was sent so that everyone could be saved.
 
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Billy Evmur

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gotta preach the gospel and then let go let God, stop interfering with His precious work among the people by asking for decisions etc, half those who go to the front don't get saved anyway, it just makes the preacher look good.

But if God is let free to work among the people many more would be saved.
 
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Loren T.

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They say they "chose Christ" but Jesus said "you did not choose Me but I chose you...."

Paul did not choose Christ, he chose to persecute Him...he even saw the godly Stephen martyred, probably saw Stephen do miracles and heard his wisdom.

Fact is God totally destroyed Paul's freewill on that road to Damascus, the lion became a mouse and squeaked "who are You Lord?"
Really? We are all given the same choice paul was, just not usually as dramatic. Paul could have stayed Saul and chosen blindness. We've probably all known people who had a dramatic revelation from God, but eventually fell into soul amnesia and walked away from the truth they were given.
 
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Loren T.

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Jesus said we are "born anew not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God"

But you say it WAS your will.
You don't understand armininan theology. No one saves themselves. Why does God ask us to believe if belief is just something God zaps us with? What would be the point? Why does Jesus commend people for thier faith and chide others for thier lack of faith?
 
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