Arminian Presbyterian

BillynJennifer

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I have only just recently learned the doctrines of Arminianism and Calvinism. I do consider myself Presbyterian, by way of membership, but I don't hold to a once in Grace always in Grace doctrine. As Presbyterians as a whole, do we believe the OIGAIG doctrine?

So confused with all of this...
 
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hedrick

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Traditionally the best-known Presbyterian doctrine is predestination, which this is part of. Conservative Presbyterian denominations feel strongly about it. The PCUSA tends to focus more on common Christian doctrines, so there's more flexibility on predestination. While it's not our official position, I believe many PCUSA members and even elders would accept something more like the Lutheran position, which still sees God's grace as important, but concedes that it is possible for people to turn away from the faith. Based on the information in your profile, I believe your church is a PCUSA church.


I think Jesus' teaching suggests that God doesn't give up on people, even when they give up on him. But I'm not as confident as some how to move from this understanding to doctrines like predestination and perseverance.
 
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AMR

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I have only just recently learned the doctrines of Arminianism and Calvinism. I do consider myself Presbyterian, by way of membership, but I don't hold to a once in Grace always in Grace doctrine. As Presbyterians as a whole, do we believe the OIGAIG doctrine?

So confused with all of this...
Even the liberal PCUSA claims to hold to the WCF. From the WCF we read:


Chapter XVII - Of the Perseverance of the Saints.

[FONT=&quot]I. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved (Psalm 14:4; 36:3; Job 21:14,15; Matthew 25:41-43,45; 23:3).

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father (2 Tim. 2:18,19; Jer. 31:3); upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:10,14; 13:20,21; 9:12-15; Rom. 8:33-39; John 17:11,24; Luke 22:32; Heb. 7:25), the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them (John 14:16,17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9), and the nature of the covenant of grace (Jer. 32:40): from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof (John 10:28; 2 Thess. 3:3; 1 John 2:19).

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins (Matthew 26:70,72,74); and, for a time, continue therein (Psalm 51 (title) and Psalm 51:14): whereby they incur God's displeasure (Is. 64:5,7,9; 2 Sam. 11:27), and grieve his Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30), come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts (Psalm 51:8,10,12; Rev. 2:4; Sol. 5:2-4,6), have their hearts hardened (Is. 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14), and their consciences wounded (Psalm 32:3,4; 51:8); hurt and scandalize others (2 Sam. 12:14), and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (Psalm 89;31,32; 1 Cor. 11:32).​
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hedrick

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The WCF is part of the Book of Confessions. It also includes generic statements such as the Apostles Creed, and newer statements such as the Confession of 1967 and the Brief Statement of Faith. All PCUSA officers promise to be guided by the confessions as a whole. That does not mean that they believe every statement in them. (Unlike AMR's church, the PCUSA expects this only from officers. We accept as members anyone who accepts Christ as Lord and savior.)

AMR belongs to a more conservative Presbyterian Church, that expects members and officers to accept the WCF more explicitly. They do permit some disagreement, but probably few Sessions would accept significant disagreement with the WCF on this topic. But the PCUSA accepts more variation in belief than his denomination does.

I believe pastors and others who are serious about theology in the PCUSA typically believe in some form of election. I don't think we all take that chapter of the WCF to be a complete expression of our belief.

The term "once in grace always in grace", used by the OP, isn't one I'm familiar with in Reformed theology. In Protestant theology, grace is an attribute of God. It is his determination to save us, even though we don't deserve it. That gracious determination does not change. But that particular wording doesn't sound like one that Reformed folk would normally use.

We observe people who are saved and those who are not. We observe people who start out looking like they are, but who fall away. To what do we attribute this? Those who continue to the end aren't any smarter, nor do they normally seem to have done anything special to deserve it. Why, of two brothers, will one continue in faith and the other not? In the end there's a great mystery, for which as Christians we have to say that God is responsible.

This doesn't mean that God forces people to follow him, nor does it mean that people are saved without having faith. The Baptist version of perseverance is "once saved, always saved." For many Baptists, this means if you once "accept Christ" you're in, no matter what you do later. That's not the Reformed view. The Reformed view is the more traditional Christian one that those who are saved are those who persevere to the end in faith. To me, the Reformed doctrines of grace simply testify to the fact that those who do keep their faith in the end do so only because of God's grace, and that ultimately who does and who does not is a mystery, whose reasons are hidden with God. Speculation that goes beyond that seems ill-advised. I think the WCF verges on, and probably crosses into, that kind of speculation.

There are surely Arminians in the PCUSA. There are also people who accept the WCF strictly. But I think the view I outline is a fairly common one.
 
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hedrick

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So, then, does the doctrine of irresistible Grace and the "Elect" remove a person's free will?

No, but a full account of this gets complex.


No one's will is completely free. There are external constraints. I am not free to fly to the moon by flapping my arms. I am not free to murder someone, at least not without unacceptable consequences.

Then there are internal constraints. What I can do depends upon my abilities, and even my character. Certain things would never occur to me as possibilities, others might, but still they would not be realistic possibilities.

Christians have generally said that a person can't know God and live a godly life without God first reaching out to them and changing them, or perhaps starting a change in them.

Yet we are free in the sense that for most actions, including having faith, no one is forcing us. That's not how God works, except possibility in unusual situations such as Paul's conversion, and even there he could have responded to the voice in varying ways. So our wills are predisposed and enabled by a variety of factors, internal and external, but we still choose, and most of the time that choice reflects our character and goals, and we are properly held accountable.

As far as I know, all Christians agree with these things. Everyone understands that we can't choose God or even respond to him unless he enables us, and everyone agrees that we make real choices for which we are accountable. The difference lies in how people account for the interaction of God's actions with us and the activity of our own wills.

Arminians say that God's activity with us and our own wills interact in a mysterious way such that God's grace is necessary, but our choices are still our own. This position is sometimes called synergism.

Reformed theology prefers to see God as in charge. Because he knows how anyone will respond in any situation, he knows when he moves someone whether or not it will result in their conversion. Thus we think God has an overall plan, which includes the salvation of every individual. Why does God's plan include certain people as saved and others as damned? That, we don't know. Calvin says it is for God's glory. Some people (particularly those who are horrified by Calvinism) think he means that God glories in damning people. I think what Calvin means is that while we can't know why some are saved and other aren't, when we finally come face to face with God and understand, we will see that his reasons glorify him, i.e. that his plan was meant for good, and has loving reasons behind it.

But remember, God's plan is simply a plan. People still make choices, for which they can be held accountable. He doesn't force them to do it. But he understands and is responsible for the larger pattern into which their choices fit, and they can't choose him unless he enables them to do so.

I am not convinced that Arminianism and Calvinism even contradict each other. I think an Arminian account of how people make decisions can be combined with a Calvinist account of how those decisions fit into God's larger plan.

But there's a lot of rhetorical posturing that you have to find your way through. For example, suppose God speaks to two people in their hearts, and he knows that one will end up saved and another will not. An Arminian would say that God has enabled both, but one chose to respond and the other did not. A Calvinist would say that God saved the one and left the other in his sins. God knew that his activity would end up with the first person being saved. His overall plan includes that. So it makes sense to say that he intended it. Thus, we say he intentionally saved the first person. Similarly, although he may have spoken to the second in the exact same way, he knew what the result would be, and for an omnipotent being we have to assume that he intended to do what he actually does. Hence we say that he left the second person in his sins.

Despite the very great difference in the Arminian and Calvinist accounts, there's a sense in which they don't contradict each other, but depend upon our choice of how to describe God's actions. Unfortunately the history between Arminians and Calvinists is such that very few of them will agree that the positions may not actually contradict each other. Of classical writers, John Wesley seems at times to have come close to this understanding.

But it's also worth looking at Luther. Luther had a strong commitment to maintaining mystery. He felt that there were things we couldn't understand, and that trying to penetrate things left dark by God would lead to trouble. While later Lutherans can at times be seen as synergistic (at least in how they deal with our situation after our initial conversion), Luther seems to have believed in election as strongly as Calvin. Like Calvin, he believed that we can only be saved when God graciously decides to do so. Thus Luther would agree with the Reformed tradition that God actively saves those who are saved. However he considered the understanding of why God allowed or even willed some not to be saved to be associated with God's "left hand." Today we might say it is part of the "dark side." He believed we don't have enough wisdom to understand God's ultimate reasons for this, and that we should leave it as a mystery. We should concentrate on what God has revealed, which is that he will save anyone who has faith in him, and that this faith is a gift from him.

You may recognize my first response as being somewhat Lutheran. Current Reformed and Lutheran bodies have largely stopped fighting about the (largely minor) differences between our two traditions. The PCUSA and ELCA (the largest Lutheran body) are now in full communion. Thus I think PCUSA folk are free to be guided by Luther at times.
 
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So, then, does the doctrine of irresistible Grace and the "Elect" remove a person's free will?

Not any more than the biblical doctrine of Predestination, the doctrine of Election, or the doctrine of Eternal Security (not to be confused with the earthly Perseverance of the Saints).

The topic of determinism and free will is an extremely lengthy one (as hedrick hinted), though study can be rewarding. One book I highly recommend is R.C. Sproul's "Willing to Believe". One thing that separates it from other books on the topic is that it gives a historical account of the debate. A few of the classic works on the subject include Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will", John Calvin's "The Bondage and Liberation of the Will", Jonathan Edwards "The Freedom of the Will", and other works like John Owen's "Display of Arminianism" and John Gill's "The Cause of God and Truth". Then there are the Reformed Confessions, of which there are many, that touch on the subject.

Probably my favorite modern work dealing with the subject is Loraine Boettner's book "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination". Years ago it was recognized by World magazine (a Christian news publication) as one of the top 100 books of the century. Finally, I should mention another somewhat modern and important work on the subject, A.W. Pink's "The Sovereignty of God". At least a couple of the books mentioned, older ones can be found online for free.
 
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I have only just recently learned the doctrines of Arminianism and Calvinism. I do consider myself Presbyterian, by way of membership, but I don't hold to a once in Grace always in Grace doctrine. As Presbyterians as a whole, do we believe the OIGAIG doctrine?

So confused with all of this...

I wonder if PCUSA are arminian presbyterians
 
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Smoky

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Cumberland Presbyterians do believe in universal atonement, that everyone can be saved. They do tend to believe in OSAS, though, like most Southern Baptists. The belief is that once you're saved, you would never again want to deny your faith.
Confession of Faith of the Cumberland Presbyterian Churches
 
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hedrick

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I wonder if PCUSA are arminian presbyterians

I would say that the PCUSA has people with traditional Calvinist views and people with views similar to Arminius. I hate to use the word Arminian, because I think a majority of those called Arminian emphasize free will more than Arminius did. In my experience, the PCUSA emphasizes the need for grace and role of grace more than typical Arminians do.
 
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ztalbott

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I wonder if PCUSA are arminian presbyterians

Absolutely not, though I'm sure all denominations have dissenting individuals. The PC(USA) Book of Confessions is distinctly Calvinist from the Scots Confession to the Westminster standards to the Heidelberg Catechism and the 2nd Helvetic Confession.
 
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hedrick

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Absolutely not, though I'm sure all denominations have dissenting individuals. The PC(USA) Book of Confessions is distinctly Calvinist from the Scots Confession to the Westminster standards to the Heidelberg Catechism and the 2nd Helvetic Confession.

This is true as far as it goes. The Book of Confessions has these confessions, and they teach predestination. There are certainly people in the PCUSA who accept traditional Calvinist views. But you need to look at the 20th Cent documents in the Book of Confession, as well as those listed.

First, the 1903 modifications to Westminster at the very least reject the limited atonement. I think they open the way for other objections to TULIP as well.

Furthermore, the Confession of 1967 and the Declaration of Faith both speak of being covenant people chosen by God, for the sake of the world. None of the 20th Cent documents use election in the context of God choosing a specific set of people to save, but rather in the context of God choosing a set of people to act for him in redeeming the world. The Brief Statement is too brief to cover this issue, but still speaks of the covenant with Israel to bless all people, and does not say anything about election for salvation. Given that this is labelled as a brief statement of the Reformed faith, I'd say that omission is intentional.

The PCUSA web page has three articles about predestination, two of them outlining several approaches, and saying the members of the PCUSA do not all follow the same approach.

I think the most accurate statement about the PCUSA is that it accepts a spectrum of views on predestination, some of which agree with Arminius. However Barth's version is probably at least as influential. See the following article for a brief description of the various views: http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/today/predestination-2/.
 
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crixus

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Cumberland Presbyterians do believe in universal atonement, that everyone can be saved. They do tend to believe in OSAS, though, like most Southern Baptists. The belief is that once you're saved, you would never again want to deny your faith.
Confession of Faith of the Cumberland Presbyterian Churches

They don't adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith, so that puts the kibosh on belief in predestination. Also, they share a Seminary in Memphis with the Methodists. And no Calvinistic church would ever do that. :amen:
 
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