Armageddon is a real war, which will kill large numbers of people in a literal sense. True or false?

FaithWillDo

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Revelation 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. AND POWER WAS GIVEN TO THEM OVER A FOURTH OF THE EARTH, TO KILL WITH SWORD, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9
15 SO THE FOUR ANGELS, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to KILL A THIRD OF MANKIND. 18 BY THESE THREE PLAGUES A THIRD OF MANKIND WAS KILLED —by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

The above Scripture has claimed that there will be at least two successive waves of genocide, which are distinct and separate events.

Now, the first genocide is going to kill 25 percent of the earth's total inhabitants (Revelation 6), but the second genocide would kill 33.33 percent of the earth's inhabitants (Revelation 9):-

Therefore, 25 + 33 = 58 %

Therefore, the remainder = 100 - 58 = 42 %

However, the current global population is about 7,800,000,000 people.

Now, 42 % x 7,800,000,000
= 3,276,000,000 people

Thus, 3,276,000,000 people is the projected remainder in the aftermath of the two successive waves of genocide in Revelation 6 and Revelation 9.

But will there be more genocide in addition to the aforementioned?

Well, Isaiah 24:1 has claimed that God is going to kill sufficient numbers of people to make the earth "desolate", but the actual percentage is undisclosed in verse 1, and also undisclosed in the following verses 5 and 6; we just know that God would kill sufficient numbers of people to make the earth "desolate":-

Isaiah 24
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are DESOLATE. THEREFORE THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH ARE BURNED, AND FEW MEN ARE LEFT.

However, the remainder of 3,276,000,000 are way too many people to make the earth "desolate", which means that this figure must be drastically curtailed in order to befit the description of a "desolate" earth.

The exact figure is undisclosed, but even 1 percent of the original 7,800 million would be far too many to make the earth "desolate".

Thus, according to the Bible there will be 3 different waves of genocide, but the Final death count is undisclosed because there is no precise figure concerning the third and final wave.

Regardless of the actual percentage (or numerical value) it is evidently clear that Armageddon is a real war, which is going to kill large numbers of people in literal terms.

Because there is no way that this genocide could be a metaphor as opposed to genocide in a literal sense.

Please discuss.

Dear Bouan,
The book of Revelation is a book that was "signified" to John. In other words, the message of the book is given to John in spiritual symbols. It is not literal. Christ uses the physical to describe the spiritual.

Christ came to earth to save mankind and to do that work, He changed the Old Covenant of Law to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. The New Covenant works to clean the inside of our cup (inward, spiritual), whereas the Old Covenant works to only clean the outside of our cup (outward, physical). The Old Covenant has never saved anyone. The only pathway to salvation is through faith in Christ.

The book of Revelation is about the unveiling of Christ within His chosen Elect. All the events that are played out in the book are spiritual and happen "within" us. They do not happen out in the world as you believe. Your understanding is carnal and not spiritual. You are still seeing Christ in the flesh.

The destruction that you see from the verses you quoted is speaking of the judgment of our Old Man, our carnal nature. Unless He is destroyed, we cannot be saved. Christ destroys him by judgment. Parts of Revelation describe this destruction of the Old Man within His Elect. That is how Christ purifies us. It is not an outward purification, it is 100% inward.

Until you can start understanding the difference between the two Covenants, most of scripture will remain hidden from your understanding.

1Cor 2:11-14 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Joe
 
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Bouan Philippe

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Dear Bouan,
The book of Revelation is a book that was "signified" to John. In other words, the message of the book is given to John in spiritual symbols. It is not literal. Christ uses the physical to describe the spiritual.

Christ came to earth to save mankind and to do that work, He changed the Old Covenant of Law to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. The New Covenant works to clean the inside of our cup (inward, spiritual), whereas the Old Covenant works to only clean the outside of our cup (outward, physical). The Old Covenant has never saved anyone. The only pathway to salvation is through faith in Christ.

The book of Revelation is about the unveiling of Christ within His chosen Elect. All the events that are played out in the book are spiritual and happen "within" us. They do not happen out in the world as you believe. Your understanding is carnal and not spiritual. You are still seeing Christ in the flesh.

The destruction that you see from the verses you quoted is speaking of the judgment of our Old Man, our carnal nature. Unless He is destroyed, we cannot be saved. Christ destroys him by judgment. Parts of Revelation describe this destruction of the Old Man within His Elect. That is how Christ purifies us. It is not an outward purification, it is 100% inward.

Until you can start understanding the difference between the two Covenants, most of scripture will remain hidden from your understanding.

1Cor 2:11-14 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Joe
Obviously, I reject everything you have said because it's not in my interest to entertain your concerns.
 
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Bouan Philippe

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He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame unto him. Proverbs 18:13

Obviously, it presupposes that Christ can be treated like any other human, which could only be true if He is not the Son of God (Colossians 2:9).

But of course, you know that I'm not open to any suggestions by people who disagree with my version of the Bible, therefore it's a complete waste of time to try and persuade me, because I will reject anything which is incompatible with my worldview.
 
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trophy33

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But of course, you know that I'm not open to any suggestions by people who disagree with my version of the Bible, therefore it's a complete waste of time to try and persuade me, because I will reject anything which is incompatible with my worldview.
What is the point of this thread, then? You said "discuss" but then you rejected any discussion.
 
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Bouan Philippe

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What is the point of this thread, then? You said "discuss" but then you rejected any discussion.
Actually, the discussion was meant to gauge the full extent of Opposition to my viewpoint, but I've never pretended that I would be open to alternative viewpoints.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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This answer contradicts Revelation 6:8, which has specifically said that 25 percent will be killed by the SWORD.

The War is real, and the carnage is also real.
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

If you see this as only by war that is up to you.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Obviously, it presupposes that Christ can be treated like any other human, which could only be true if He is not the Son of God (Colossians 2:9).

But of course, you know that I'm not open to any suggestions by people who disagree with my version of the Bible, therefore it's a complete waste of time to try and persuade me, because I will reject anything which is incompatible with my worldview.

Well than Proverbs 18:13 really does apply to you than; doesn't it.

And besides; where do you think anyone here is implying that Jesus isn't the Son of God?
 
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DavidPT

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Revelation 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. AND POWER WAS GIVEN TO THEM OVER A FOURTH OF THE EARTH, TO KILL WITH SWORD, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9
15 SO THE FOUR ANGELS, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to KILL A THIRD OF MANKIND. 18 BY THESE THREE PLAGUES A THIRD OF MANKIND WAS KILLED —by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

The above Scripture has claimed that there will be at least two successive waves of genocide, which are distinct and separate events.

Now, the first genocide is going to kill 25 percent of the earth's total inhabitants (Revelation 6), but the second genocide would kill 33.33 percent of the earth's inhabitants (Revelation 9):-

Therefore, 25 + 33 = 58 %

Therefore, the remainder = 100 - 58 = 42 %

However, the current global population is about 7,800,000,000 people.

Now, 42 % x 7,800,000,000
= 3,276,000,000 people

Thus, 3,276,000,000 people is the projected remainder in the aftermath of the two successive waves of genocide in Revelation 6 and Revelation 9.

But will there be more genocide in addition to the aforementioned?

Well, Isaiah 24:1 has claimed that God is going to kill sufficient numbers of people to make the earth "desolate", but the actual percentage is undisclosed in verse 1, and also undisclosed in the following verses 5 and 6; we just know that God would kill sufficient numbers of people to make the earth "desolate":-

Isaiah 24
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are DESOLATE. THEREFORE THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH ARE BURNED, AND FEW MEN ARE LEFT.

However, the remainder of 3,276,000,000 are way too many people to make the earth "desolate", which means that this figure must be drastically curtailed in order to befit the description of a "desolate" earth.

The exact figure is undisclosed, but even 1 percent of the original 7,800 million would be far too many to make the earth "desolate".

Thus, according to the Bible there will be 3 different waves of genocide, but the Final death count is undisclosed because there is no precise figure concerning the third and final wave.

Regardless of the actual percentage (or numerical value) it is evidently clear that Armageddon is a real war, which is going to kill large numbers of people in literal terms.

Because there is no way that this genocide could be a metaphor as opposed to genocide in a literal sense.

Please discuss.


It all depends on whether or not one thinks that Armageddon is the last event leading up to the 2nd coming, if that person should interpret it as a real war or in another sense altogether.

This is what Jesus said in the Discourse.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

I'm assuming the wars meant are meaning real wars. Verse 6 says---for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet---while verse 8 says---All these are the beginning of sorrows.


And if Armageddon is a real war, Armageddon can't then be meaning the end of this age since Jesus said the end is not yet, in regards to any real wars.

If one interprets Armageddon as a real war, is this lining up with what Jesus said in Matthew 24, and is it lining up with when you think Armageddon is meaning and what that leads to? Per one's interpretation, does Armageddon lead to the end or something else?
 
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2BeholdHisGlory

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ViaCrucis

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CryptoLutheran, dont you think something can be literal but also spiritually speaking?

For example here

Rev 11:7 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Dead bodies lying where our Lord was literally crucified but in a place that is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.

Of course something can be literal and spiritually speaking, but the Apocalypse of St. John isn't an example of that.

Our Lord's resurrection from the dead is literal, and it is profoundly spiritual in what it means, has accomplished, and what it says--Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death; and because Christ is risen, the first-fruits of the resurrection of the dead, so too will we be raised up on the Last Day.

It's not a dichotomy between literal and "spiritual"; but between literal and non-literal. The Apocalypse is not a literal text, it's an apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Obviously, you're entitled to your own opinion and you clearly have an agenda, but I happen to disagree and will continue to pursue my own agenda accordingly.

Whatever made you think you could persuade me on this particular point?

I didn't think I could persuade you of anything.

I just think it's important to challenge assumptions.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Bouan Philippe

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When did this war happen?

I'm not a Futurist, so I have no reason to believe Armageddon refers to some future cataclysmic war.

-CryptoLutheran
I think you're a futurist because it's convenient to assume that Armageddon is not WW3, which would kill far more people than WW1 & WW2.

Most people would like to think that their country wouldn't be invaded and their people subsequently killed by this war, but such wishful thinking is a fallacy of logic.

Besides, futurism is not part of Christianity in the mainstream, as far as I'm aware.
 
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Bouan Philippe

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I agree there's no historical evidence at all to say this war happened in the past. It does not follow that it must happen in the future, not if the war is not literal at all.

And why would it be literal? It's called the Apocalypse--the Revelation--of St. John because it is the Apocalypse which St. John of Patmos wrote. It's an apocalypse, that's what kind of writing it is. Apocalypses are not written works that predict the future, but written works which reveal things by using deeply figurative language.

The Beast in Revelation 13 isn't a literal sea-monster, he's human. The harlot of Revelation 17 isn't about a literal prostitute, she is a city that sits on seven hills; and she rides a purple beast with many heads and crowns, again this isn't a literal monster, it speaks of a succession of kings.

Why would the whole text be figurative, but then become literal here?

I also don't believe that a giant golden city is going to float down from the sky. I don't believe that when Jesus Christ returns in glory that He is going to be riding a literal horse or have a literal sword proceeding out of His mouth. Likewise, I don't think that Jesus is a literal lamb sitting on a giant chair in heaven.

Armageddon isn't any more literal than the rest of the Apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

The mere mention of the "earth" in verse 19 is proof that the War of Armageddon is literal because it will take place on the earth, which implies the engagement of conventional military forces.

It discredits the assumption that Armageddon is only a figurative war, but the real military conflict entails violence, death and destruction in a literal sense.
 
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trophy33

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Most people would like to think that their country wouldn't be invaded and their people subsequently killed by this war, but such wishful thinking is a fallacy of logic.
Speaking of logic, which country will be the invader if all countries will be invaded?
 
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Bouan Philippe

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Speaking of logic, which country will be the invader if all countries will be invaded?
I have never said that all countries will be invaded during the Millennial kingdom.

Presumably, the "vessels of mercy" (Romans 9:23) are those countries which will never be invaded (which are mostly Christian nations), but it doesn't mean that they wouldn't come under the indirect economic influence of the global superpower, which is presently the USA.

The future EU might be dominated by the military and economic power of the ascendant country.

Besides, Daniel 11 seems to be another OT prophecy of the End Times, whereupon it's quite clear that there would be at least two superpowers during Armageddon and the Millennial kingdom.
 
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trophy33

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I have never said that all countries will be invaded during the Millennial kingdom.

Presumably, the "vessels of mercy" (Romans 9:23) are those countries which will never be invaded (which are mostly Christian nations), but it doesn't mean that they wouldn't come under the indirect economic influence of the global superpower, which is presently the USA.

The future EU might be dominated by the military and economic power of the ascendant country.

Besides, Daniel 11 seems to be another OT prophecy of the End Times, whereupon it's quite clear that there would be at least two superpowers during Armageddon and the Millennial kingdom.
So, we have countries that will be invaded.

And countries that will never be invaded (Christian nations).

Who will be the invader, then... the Christian nations?

Also, can you even imagine Russia, Canada or China to be invaded, technically?
 
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Bouan Philippe

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So, we have countries that will be invaded.

And countries that will never be invaded (Christian nations).

Who will be the invader, then... the Christian nations?
Probably, the Christian nations with a Hegemon.

Also, can you even imagine Russia or China to be invaded, technically?
There is no reason to suggest that an Orthodox Christian nation such as Russia should be invaded, but it's more likely that they would enter into a long term political union with the other Christian nations of Europe.

However, I believe that China could be easily invaded by killing all of their military personnel and by neutralizing their entire military equipment, which includes their weapons of mass destruction.

Because they are not a Christian nation I think they should be conquered, invaded, and subjugated (and brought to heel).
 
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trophy33

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Because they are not a Christian nation I think they should be conquered, invaded, and subjugated (and brought to heel).
Sounds more like Islam than like Christianity.

Are you close to some muslim community in France?
 
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Bouan Philippe

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Sounds more like Islam than like Christianity.

Are you close to some muslim community in France?
The people of Europe have been forcibly converted to Christianity by the Romans, otherwise, Europe wouldn't be Christian at all.

Attacking a Non-Christian country doesn't make me Muslim, but the suggestion is a logical Non-sequitur.
 
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trophy33

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The people of Europe have been forcibly converted to Christianity by the Romans, otherwise, Europe wouldn't be Christian at all.

Attacking a Non-Christian country doesn't make me Muslim, but the suggestion is a logical Non-sequitur.
Are you close to some muslim community in France? Just a question, because you seem to be influenced by a similar mentality.

We are called to peace, not to invade anyone just because they are not Christians.
 
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