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Armageddon is a real war, which will kill large numbers of people in a literal sense. True or false?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bouan Philippe, May 10, 2021.

  1. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    Revelation 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. AND POWER WAS GIVEN TO THEM OVER A FOURTH OF THE EARTH, TO KILL WITH SWORD, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

    Revelation 9
    15 SO THE FOUR ANGELS, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to KILL A THIRD OF MANKIND. 18 BY THESE THREE PLAGUES A THIRD OF MANKIND WAS KILLED —by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.

    The above Scripture has claimed that there will be at least two successive waves of genocide, which are distinct and separate events.

    Now, the first genocide is going to kill 25 percent of the earth's total inhabitants (Revelation 6), but the second genocide would kill 33.33 percent of the earth's inhabitants (Revelation 9):-

    Therefore, 25 + 33 = 58 %

    Therefore, the remainder = 100 - 58 = 42 %

    However, the current global population is about 7,800,000,000 people.

    Now, 42 % x 7,800,000,000
    = 3,276,000,000 people

    Thus, 3,276,000,000 people is the projected remainder in the aftermath of the two successive waves of genocide in Revelation 6 and Revelation 9.

    But will there be more genocide in addition to the aforementioned?

    Well, Isaiah 24:1 has claimed that God is going to kill sufficient numbers of people to make the earth "desolate", but the actual percentage is undisclosed in verse 1, and also undisclosed in the following verses 5 and 6; we just know that God would kill sufficient numbers of people to make the earth "desolate":-

    Isaiah 24
    5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are DESOLATE. THEREFORE THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH ARE BURNED, AND FEW MEN ARE LEFT.

    However, the remainder of 3,276,000,000 are way too many people to make the earth "desolate", which means that this figure must be drastically curtailed in order to befit the description of a "desolate" earth.

    The exact figure is undisclosed, but even 1 percent of the original 7,800 million would be far too many to make the earth "desolate".

    Thus, according to the Bible there will be 3 different waves of genocide, but the Final death count is undisclosed because there is no precise figure concerning the third and final wave.

    Regardless of the actual percentage (or numerical value) it is evidently clear that Armageddon is a real war, which is going to kill large numbers of people in literal terms.

    Because there is no way that this genocide could be a metaphor as opposed to genocide in a literal sense.

    Please discuss.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  2. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    if you have 12 and subtract 25% you would have 9 and if you take 1/3 from you would have 6 which is half. Then other factors at the bring it to if the LORD did not shorten those days no flesh would remain. It is interesting to note that Rev 6 mentions the beasts as part of the death factor and a good teacher Chuck Misler in the early 90's noted that could be a virus or bacteria or something like that and not necessarily the animals going berzerk.
     
  3. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    This is nothing but sophistry, which is meant to obfuscate the entire discussion.

    Obviously, I reject what you've said, but insist I am still right.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    you can add a list of choices/answers to your thread if you like.

    Armageddon does not happen until Rev 16 "setup" where demons go to the kings of the entire Earth and gather them together for the battle.

    Then in Rev 19 we see the battle engaged - it is the armies of heaven against the devil's army and all wicked members of mankind - mankind's entire armed forces.

    All the wicked are slain in Rev 19 -- that means about 7 billion

    World Population Clock: 7.9 Billion People (2021) - Worldometer

    ======================

    Rev 16
    13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the entire world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and people will not see his shame.”) 16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

    That is the "call to arms" to gather for the Battle --

    Then in Rev 19 the Battle is engaged -- the TWO ARMIES meet. The Armies of planet Earth and also demons --- join to fight the armies of heaven.

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

    19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

    Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
    20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

    ========================
    more like 90% plus .... killed
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  5. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    False
     
  6. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    This answer contradicts Revelation 6:8, which has specifically said that 25 percent will be killed by the SWORD.

    The War is real, and the carnage is also real.
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    When did this war happen?

    I'm not a Futurist, so I have no reason to believe Armageddon refers to some future cataclysmic war.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  8. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    For me I believe the book of Revelation is symbolic for the people living in the first century. So to answer you @Bouan Philippe I do not believe such is a real thing
     
  9. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    Obviously, there is no historical evidence at all to say that this war happened in the past tense, therefore the war must happen in a future sense.
     
  10. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    There are "two wars" mentioned in Revelation.

    1. = Armageddon
    2. = Battle of Gog and Magog.

    Armageddon happens at "the beginning of the millennial reign"
    Gog and Magog happen "at the end of the millennial reign".

    Now, one's opinion of this is going to depend on whether or not they are a Dispensationalist or an Almilleniaalist. (I'm not sure what post-millennial view on this is.)

    Armageddon means "mountain of assembly". It's commonly connected to another Hebrew word "Megiddo" which is a geographical plain where a battle took place and Manasseh failed to drive the people out of the area. Later on, King Ahaziah of Judah is killed there.

    Now personally, I believe Armageddon was a "real" battle that took place in the spirit realm and had to do with the souls delivered from Sheol at the point Jesus died. I believe "the battle of Armageddon" was part of the atonement.

    Note verse Revelation 16:17: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

    Where else do we see: "it is done (finished)" in the Scripture? (Jesus says this just before He dies.)

    End of Ephesians 1 tells us Christ began to reign at the resurrection. (Hence the commencement of the "millennial reign".)

    The "millennial reign" ends with the recreation of the heavens and earth. Prior to this is the "battle of Gog and Magog". Now is this a "flesh and blood" battle? That I don't know; but I'm inclined to say "no" simply based on the fact that Scripture says that most people will not be prepared or expecting Judgement Day when it gets here.
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I agree there's no historical evidence at all to say this war happened in the past. It does not follow that it must happen in the future, not if the war is not literal at all.

    And why would it be literal? It's called the Apocalypse--the Revelation--of St. John because it is the Apocalypse which St. John of Patmos wrote. It's an apocalypse, that's what kind of writing it is. Apocalypses are not written works that predict the future, but written works which reveal things by using deeply figurative language.

    The Beast in Revelation 13 isn't a literal sea-monster, he's human. The Whore of Revelation 17 isn't about a literal prostitute, she is a city that sits on seven hills; and she rides a purple beast with many heads and crowns, again this isn't a literal monster, it speaks of a succession of kings.

    Why would the whole text be figurative, but then become literal here?

    I also don't believe that a giant golden city is going to float down from the sky. I don't believe that when Jesus Christ returns in glory that He is going to be riding a literal horse or have a literal sword proceeding out of His mouth. Likewise, I don't think that Jesus is a literal lamb sitting on a giant chair in heaven.

    Armageddon isn't any more literal than the rest of the Apocalypse.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  12. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Still on vacation!

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    CryptoLutheran, dont you think something can be literal but also spiritually speaking?

    For example here

    Rev 11:7 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    Dead bodies lying where our Lord was literally crucified but in a place that is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.
     
  13. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    a) The word "earth" never means the whole planet, in the Bible.
    - its almost eclusively referring to either Mesopotamia, Israel/Palestine or a pagan empire surrounding it (for example Babylon, Rome)

    So, there is no reason to make calculations with the global population.

    b) If its literal or allegorical or some combination of both, its hard to say.
     
  14. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Still on vacation!

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    Abraham literally had two women by whom he had two sons, which things are also an allegory, as they represent two literal covenants. It gets tricky^_^
     
  15. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    Obviously, you're entitled to your viewpoint, but I disagree.
     
  16. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    Obviously, you're entitled to your viewpoint, but I actually disagree and will continue to pursue my own agenda accordingly.
     
  17. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    Consequently, the Bible could still be referencing the entire earth, but not simply a region of the earth?
     
  18. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    Obviously, you're entitled to your own opinion and you clearly have an agenda, but I happen to disagree and will continue to pursue my own agenda accordingly.

    Whatever made you think you could persuade me on this particular point?
     
  19. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    And.... you're not interested in finding out why other people see these things as allegorical / spiritual, or a pictorial description of events taking place in the spiritual realm?

    He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame unto him. Proverbs 18:13

    To understand Scripture, you have to compare it to itself.

    There are valid Scriptural reasons that people have come to the conclusions they have. Not everyone agrees or understands what the allegories mean. For example: how or why it's Jerusalem that Revelation depicts as a prostitute. Some people think it's Rome. It's not Rome; it's Jerusalem.

    The answers to those questions are other places in the Bible. The one beast in Revelation 13, is talked about in the book of Daniel. That book will give you some information of when these beasts came into existence what they're associated with and why.

    The 3 beasts that came before the 4th (and Revelation 13 is the 4th) beast are associated with the Babylonian, Greek and Persian empires. And there's information and details as to why these beasts are associated with these empires.

    Daniel is full of information about the life of Christ. The spiritual conditions that came to pass in Israel leading up to the crucifixion; had their origin points during the reigns of these empires; and the consequences of what was happening in the spiritual realm, indeed did have very real earthly manifestations.

    The sun was darkened and the moon could not bee seen during the crucifixion. There was an earthquake when Jesus died. There was another earthquake when He rose from the dead. Those were real manifestations of real events going on that humans could not see with fleshly eyes.

    There's whole worlds of angels, demons and other entities present in our current cosmos that we can't see. In a certain sense they exist in "another dimension". Much of the allegorical descriptions in the Scripture are giving us information about that realm in pictorial descriptions that we can understand. And if you learn how to read the allegories; you'll "see" the beasts. The kingdom of Satan does indeed have organic manifestations in the material world.

    For example: Why would human beings cobble together bits and pieces of virus RNA in labs and release that upon the world's population? Where'd the idea of a "global reset" really come from? Are they really going to try and microchip everyone who's had a Covid vaccine and make us carry around little cards to go to a theater, a concert or a ball game? Are there microchips in the vaccines?

    All of this is starting to look like things spoken of in the book of Revelation. Material earthly manifestations of Satan's kingdom. Well, you can't "see" Satan either; but he's a very real entity.

    The prophetic information about the coming(s) of Christ (both first and second) is cryptic. God deliberately wrote the Scripture that way. It's a puzzle. You have to use the rest of the Scripture to figure out how to read the puzzle. The Scripture is both it's own message as well as it's own "enigma machine".
     
  20. Bouan Philippe

    Bouan Philippe Member

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    But the question still remains, do we suppose that the Second Coming of Christ is going to happen within the lifetime of this present generation and is it supposedly contingent on God's cooperation with Man, instead of the opposite?
     
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