Arizona mall shooter was angry incel

[tall73]

I like that word. Good choice.



I don't believe rejection supports violence of any sort. I don't expect anything. Why would you think that?

~Bella

I think you missed the point. I am not saying rejection ever justifies violence.

But you were talking earlier about men, how they are not OK with being alone. I then noted those who are OK with being alone, MGTOW, and they are often treated poorly for wanting to be alone.

And then you said you wouldn't know and wouldn't consider them.

OK. Of course you wouldn't consider them if you are not looking for a relationship. But you do need to consider them if you are arguing about men and their ways, that some have the same problem as you. They don't want a relationship.

And both men and women can react very badly to rejection. Probably because it hurts, and no one wants a life of sadness.

So I was suggesting you consider that there are men in the same boat as you. And there are women in the resentful rejected category boat as well.

 

[MehGuy]

Any evidence would be anecdotally drawn from my acquaintances. And anecdotes are not evidence per se. But having said that, now that you mention it, the non-evidence lines up with your hypothesis in this case. In any case, it is a small sample size.

Yeah, just a thought I'm throwing out there. Not to be taken too seriously.

The friends I had as a kid, the ones from single mother homes were often the ones who were picked on the most by my other male friends. Many didn't quite seem to understand all the unspoken social rules about male interaction. I know it is not fashionable to say, but having male role models is probably more important than some would like to think. To pretend that men and women are the same fundamentally may have some psychologically devastating consequences.

Not the biggest fan of Jordon Peterson, but I did find it sad when others mocked the need many men in my generation and below seem to have for a honest male figure in their lives.

 

[bèlla]

But you were talking earlier about men, how they are not OK with being alone. I then noted those who are OK with being alone, MGTOW, and they are often treated poorly for wanting to be alone.

Choices have consequences. When you take an extreme stance you must accept what comes with that position.

But you do need to consider them if you are arguing about men and their ways, that some have the same problem as you.

I made a statement. I wasn't arguing for men. You've read more into my comments than intended.

So I was suggesting you consider that there are men in the same boat as you. And there are women in the resentful rejected category boat as well.

I never said I wasn't interested in having a partner. Or mentioned difficulty in obtaining one.

~Bella

 

[tall73]

Ok, I will quote your statements to make sure to avoid future misunderstandings. You stated:

Women are rejecting suitors more frequently. They're forgoing marriage and dating in some instances. But most men have no desire to be alone. They aren't content with friends and activities. They want a companion.

~Bella

I noted:

And how are men who go their own way responded to by society?

Often painted negatively.

You responded:

I have no opinion. I would never consider them anyway.

~Bella

What I was asking was why are men supposed to care how you feel about how men treat you if you don't care about how women treat them?

You related your experience with the guy who resented your rejection.

I crossed paths with someone like that. He desired me and spent weeks raging about my rejection. His anger was unsettling. There was an undercurrent of violence I never forgot.

If you are saying you don't care how men treat you, OK. But otherwise I don't understand your responses.

I was urging empathy on both sides.

Especially in light of MehGuy relating he has very similar problems to the ones you expressed.

Yeah, I've gotten flack from women for stating I don't feel like getting married and having a family. I lurk female incel forums too, and a sense of entitlement exists there as well. Obviously they're not as violent as men are (which is true for most things) but low value men and low value women are not totally different with toxic mindsets.

 

[tall73]

I never said I wasn't interested in having a partner. Or mentioned difficulty in obtaining one.

~Bella

Thank you I misread your earlier statement in that regard.

 

[bèlla]

What I was asking was why are men supposed to care how you feel about how men treat you if you don't care about how women treat them

I mentioned one experience and you ran with it. I encountered him on the Internet. Not my inner circle. I don't date men like that. He got enamored. It happens.

Especially in light of MehGuy relating he has very similar problems to the ones you expressed.

As I recall he prefers younger women. He's explained his preference on numerous occasions. What does that have to do with me?

~Bella

 

[tall73]

Choices have consequences. When you take an extreme stance you must accept what comes with that position.

Why is it an extreme position to be MGTOW?

 

[bèlla]

Why is it an extreme position to be MGTOW?

Why are you asking me? You brought them up. I trust you've gone deep in the trenches since you mentioned them.

~Bella

 

[tall73]

Why are you asking me? You brought them up.

~Bella

I am asking you because you said:

Choices have consequences. When you take an extreme stance you must accept what comes with that position.

in response to my mentioning them.

I mentioned them because you stated:

Women are rejecting suitors more frequently. They're forgoing marriage and dating in some instances. But most men have no desire to be alone. They aren't content with friends and activities. They want a companion.

I noted that MGTOW are content to be alone, but are also treated poorly for it at times.

You indicated MGTOW was extreme, and decisions have consequences. I am asking then do you extend that to the women who reject men or also don't want relationships? Are they extreme, and is the treatment they get a consequence of their decision?

 

[tall73]

I trust you've gone deep in the trenches since you mentioned them.

~Bella

You will have to clarify what that means as I again do not understand you.

But I have quoted your words now in the other response. so we can keep on track.

 

[bèlla]

I am asking you because you said:

You indicated MGTOW was extreme, and decisions have consequences. I am asking then do you extend that to the women who reject men or also don't want relationships? Are they extreme, and is the treatment they get a consequence of their decision?

No. I know several MGTOW and male supremacists. If a woman wants to be alone the same holds true. I'm divorced from both.

You're spending a lot of time on this. Are you a MGTOW?

~Bella

 

[bèlla]

You will have to clarify what that means as I again do not understand you.

But I have quoted your words now in the other response. so we can keep on track.

Most Christian men don't espouse fringe groups unless they can relate. I post frequently on the Singles forum and it never comes up. It is odd you mention them. Most reference a former spouse whose comfort was secured through a divorce decree.

~Bella

 

[tall73]

No. I know several MGTOW and male supremacists.
If a woman wants to be alone the same holds true. I'm divorced from both.

So neither are extreme, or both are? You said above MGTOW was extreme. Now you said no to the question of whether both are extreme or whether they deserve the response they get.

And not all MGTOW would necessarily be male supremacists because they don't want to be in a relationship.

You're spending a lot of time on this. Are you a MGTOW?

~Bella

Happily married, thanks. But we are in a discussion of male/female dynamics and incels. It is hardly strange that I am talking about it. And if you express views it is not unusual for me to attempt to respond or clarify in a discussion forum.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

LINK

Prosecutors said the 20-year-old in custody on suspicion of shooting three people at the Westgate Entertainment District in Glendale came armed with 90 rounds, and intended to use them, “but for the gun jamming.”

At his initial appearance Thursday, prosecutors described Hernandez as a “self-professed incel,” short for involuntary celibate, who was “angry” at society and sought to target couples at Westgate. One prosecutor said Hernandez was “pretty open about the fact that he has a dark side, and his dark side was coming out.”

One victim, a 19-year-old male, remains in critical condition. In court, prosecutors said the victim suffered severe blood loss from a gunshot wound to the chest, causing long delays in doctors’ efforts to perform surgery.

Another shooting victim, a 16-year-old girl, was transported to a hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.

A third victim, a 30-year-old woman, was treated at the scene.

A judge ordered Hernandez be held on a $1 million cash bond. He faces 16 felony charges related to the shooting.

Aren't all incels angry?

 

[tall73]

Most Christian men don't espouse fringe groups unless they can relate. I post frequently on the Singles forum and it never comes up. It is odd you mention them. Most reference a former spouse whose comfort was secured through a divorce decree.

~Bella

I post frequently in the Married forum. We talk about lots of things, but it has been a while since we had that conversation that I recall.

But then I don't have to be part of a "fringe' group to relate to people, or have empathy.

I can have empathy for you in having to deal with someone who took rejection poorly.

I can have empathy for Mehguy who experienced the same when he rejected a woman.

I can even have empathy for those rejected.

I do not therefore become a fringe group sympathizer, member or anything of the sort by doing so. I am just relating to people.

And if we want to help people, whether singles, married, incel, mgtow, or any of the rest, I think we should try to understand where they are coming from.

 

[bèlla]

So neither are extreme, or both are? You said above MGTOW was extreme. Now you said no the question of whether they are extreme or whether they deserve the response they get.

I think you know the answer. It is one thing to be single and another to blame your failures on the opposite sex. We must own our mistakes and shortcomings. Pointing the finger doesn’t minimize culpability.

Happily married, thanks. But we are in a discussion of male/female dynamics and incels. It is hardly strange that I am talking about it. And if you express views it is not unusual for me to attempt to respond or clarify in a discussion forum.

I made a statement. You assigned things that were never present.

~Bella

 

[bèlla]

I can even have empathy for those rejected.

I’m not you. Do you understand the difference? Can you wrap your mind around the separateness of our nature?

I don’t think or feel as you do.

~Bella

 

[tall73]

I think you know the answer. It is one thing to be single and another to blame your failures on the opposite sex.

Why would you refuse to answer, and say you think I know the answer, when you just said multiple times that I am going beyond your statements?

Clearly my inference of your views is quite flawed. That is why I asked you what your views were so I wouldn't have to infer.

At this point I guess I will have to infer anyway, and if it is wrong, so be it.

We must own our mistakes and shortcomings. Pointing the finger doesn’t minimize culpability.

Some MGTOW just focus on improvement of themselves and avoid all such entanglements. I don't know as that is blaming others. Some do also blame others which is unhealthy. One may be extreme, where the other is not.

I can have empathy for both.

I made a statement. You assigned things that were never present.

You asked a question, whether I was a MGTOW, and I answered.

 

[tall73]

I’m not you. Do you understand the difference? Can you wrap your mind around the separateness of our nature?

I don’t think or feel as you do.

~Bella

Sure I understand the difference. As confused as I have been by several of your posts, that was not in question.

You noted that most Christian men don't espouse fringe groups unless they can relate.

As usual it is hard to know if I fully understand your statements, but I do not perceive you to be a Christian man. I was responding with my view, because I do identify as a Christian man. Therefore you getting my view was in response to your statement. That is not unusual in a forum for discussion.

Now, I was trying to clarify your level of empathy for people in various circumstances. That is because I (not you, and I fully acknowledge the difference) think that trying to empathize and understand where people are coming from might help in leading them to reflect on their choices or responsibility.

You seemed to express some concern about how some men related their rejection and how they thought they were wronged. You didn't know what to tell them.

I've encountered men who believe they're treated unfairly. They feel they're worthy suitors and resent the rejection they've experienced. I don't know what to tell them.

You related your own experience with someone like that:

I crossed paths with someone like that. He desired me and spent weeks raging about my rejection. His anger was unsettling. There was an undercurrent of violence I never forgot.

You were unsettled.

Did you have empathy for any of the above? Do you have any interest in their finding better ways to deal with their personal issues?

You didn't seem to have empathy for MGTOW, or women in the same situation. But that I must infer because you thought I knew.

I am trying to understand how much empathy you have for all those involved. Because I believe that empathy is part of solving these problems, and helping those who are making choices to blame others. If your answer is that you do not have empathy for them, OK. That answers that.

 

[bèlla]

Why would you refuse to answer, and say you think I know the answer, when you just said multiple times that I am going beyond your statements?

I’ve already answered and you questioned the absence of empathy.

At this point I guess I will have to infer anyway, and if it is wrong, so be it.

You needn’t infer. I said what I intended to disclose. If I wanted to share more I would have done so.

Some MGTOW just focus on improvement of themselves and avoid all such entanglements.

I know many who walk that path. I don’t require secondhand feedback. This is moot. Most Christian men aren’t MGTOW and this is a Christian site.

~Bella



You asked a question, whether I was a MGTOW, and I answered.[/QUOTE]