Arizona mall shooter was angry incel

[variant]

Completely agree.

And that notion still recognizes biological difference on average, and the existence of masculinity,

I think it would be counter productive to try to be a good male roll model at the same time as trying to deny the existence of masculinity and what it is like (for me at least) to be a man.

Good male roll models I think have always been shown to be a positive influence.

 

[tall73]

Many of these men loathe the autonomy women gained. They want to turn back the clock to a period when we were dependent on them for sustenance and survival. I think the current climate is a truth serum of sorts. Remove the need and you'll see how a person really feels.

I don't think most of them start out at the point of resenting women's freedom. Most of them would be thrilled to have women be free if some women were actually choosing them.

But as disappointment in themselves mounts, and they find groups who interpret it as the result of factors beyond their immediate control they can buy into various philosophies that put less fault on self.

There are exceptions, usually generationally driven by parents who instill notions of male dominance.

 

[tall73]

I think it would be counter productive to try to be a good male roll model at the same time as trying to deny the existence of masculinity and what it is like (for me at least) to be a man.

Good male roll models I think have always been shown to be a positive influence.

Agreed, but how many of those who lament toxic masculinity will describe what comprises "good" masculinity?

 

[variant]

Yes, and it is also not an accident that China, which is looking to extend its influence, is particularly making state driven campaigns aimed at reinforcing masculinity, and challenging alternate definitions of masculinity.

It is even more complicated by the long-running one child policy which limited the number of female potential mates.

I think that's a bit of a different topic, but yes, the larger social engineering projects, have always been rife with unintended consequences. It's good to try to be engaged in that sort of thing as little as possible, or in as subtle a way as possible.

 

[tall73]

Women are rejecting suitors more frequently. They're forgoing marriage and dating in some instances. But most men have no desire to be alone. They aren't content with friends and activities. They want a companion.

And how are men who go their own way responded to by society?

Often painted negatively.

 

[tall73]

I think that's a bit of a different topic, but yes, the larger social engineering projects, have always been rife with unintended consequences. It's good to try to be engaged in that sort of thing as little as possible, or in as subtle a way as possible.

Or in an open a way as possible with buy in rather than mandate or censorship.

Open discussion of ideas and ideals.

 

[variant]

Agreed, but how many of those who lament toxic masculinity will describe what comprises "good" masculinity?

Its fair to let men (in general) decide what they think is a good feature of their masculinity.

 

[tall73]

Its fair to let men (in general) decide what they think is a good feature of their masculinity.

Hm....of course we approach this differently, due to religious differences. I would say God gets the only vote. But then even from a biological perspective both genders still play a role in determining that for a society. Even in the old days of arranged marriages, etc. and especially now in times of relative freedom, people still recognized what was attractive in men, and constructed a masculine ideal.

 

[MehGuy]

When killings are drug or crime related people are usually killing people they know for reasons we can understand. To address that problem you use the usual methods for dealing with crime.

When some kid decides it's time to go shoot some people he doesn't know something completely different is going on.

The latter is what I am talking about.

As this relates to sexually frustrated men killing random people.. is the US really any different is what I'm wondering?

 

[variant]

As this relates to sexually frustrated men killing random people.. is the US really any different is what I'm wondering?

It's a good question. You may have a point if men elsewhere simply act out differently. It would be hard to answer definitively without a lot of research.

 

[MehGuy]

And how are men who go their own way responded to by society?

Often painted negatively.

Yeah, I've gotten flack from women for stating I don't feel like getting married and having a family. I lurk female incel forums too, and a sense of entitlement exists there as well. Obviously they're not as violent as men are (which is true for most things) but low value men and low value women are not totally different with toxic mindsets.

 

[variant]

Hm....of course we approach this differently, due to religious differences. I would say God gets the only vote.

Even given that constraint, from my perspective, it's not always possible even under those conditions to decide definitively what God thinks, or who gets to speak for it.

In the end you can use your religion as a cultural touchstone, but ultimately it has to come down to your experience and how you relate to society at large.

But then even from a biological perspective both genders still play a role in determining that for a society. Even in the old days of arranged marriages, etc. and especially now in times of relative freedom, people still recognized what was attractive in men, and constructed a masculine ideal.

We experience both our biological experience of being a male, and how that interacts with society, and what is expected and what is advantageous.

Painting a group picture from everyone's shared perspective is how I think ideals are formed.

 

[tall73]

The sources are linked for those wanting to look them up, but apparently incels are not limited to North America, though from what I see the trend of mass violence so far is in the USA and Canada.

Incel - Wikipedia

Jaki and colleagues, publishing in The Journal of Language Aggression and Conflict of a large incel community, contended that there was no definite evidence for the group being predominantly white, "contrary to what is often reported," and that the results of their linguistic analysis indicated a treatment of racism that reflected some level of ethnic diversity.[20]

Some media outlets depict them as unemployed (NEET) and living with parents,[35] mainly in the United States,[94] although there are also incel communities for people outside the Anglosphere, such as the Italian website Il Forum dei Brutti.[95] The English forums also receive much traffic from non-anglophone countries. Research published in 2020 by the Swedish Defence Research Agency (FOI) on the three largest incel forums found they had a total of about 20,000 users, with only about 1,000 who post actively. The FOI found that between 4.6–7.3% of the visitors to the forums originated from Sweden. They suggest that in proportion to its population, Sweden has the highest proportion of incels in the world, though they caution this may not be accurate, given the use of personal VPNs.[96]

 

[tall73]

Even given that constraint, from my perspective, it's not always possible even under those conditions to decide definitively what God thinks, or who gets to speak for it.

Agreed.

We experience both our biological experience of being a male, and how that interacts with society, and what is expected and what is adventurous.

Painting a group picture from everyone's shared perspective is how I think ideals are formed.

Yes, but we cannot claim that we have no perception of feminine ideal, or input as to its content, even though they are the ones living it.

 

[variant]

Yes, but we cannot claim that we have no perception of feminine ideal, or input as to its content, even though they are the ones living it.

Yeah, we talk to one another. So, there is both influence and expression of these ideals constantly.

And sexually, men and women have ideals for what they ultimately prefer about each other. So, it's an intricate social dynamic.

 

[bèlla]

I don't think most of them start out at the point of resenting women's freedom. Most of them would be thrilled to have women be free if some women were actually choosing them.

I've encountered men who believe they're treated unfairly. They feel they're worthy suitors and resent the rejection they've experienced. I don't know what to tell them.

But as disappointment in themselves mounts, and they find groups who interpret it as the result of factors beyond their immediate control they can buy into various philosophies that put less fault on self.

I crossed paths with someone like that. He desired me and spent weeks raging about my rejection. His anger was unsettling. There was an undercurrent of violence I never forgot.

And how are men who go their own way responded to by society? Often painted negatively.

I have no opinion. I would never consider them anyway.

~Bella

 

[MehGuy]

There are exceptions, usually generationally driven by parents who instill notions of male dominance.

For me I sometimes wonder if many incels come from single mother households and female dominated schools. Many are obsessed with their own looks and tend to think it is all that really matters with their success with women. When in reality the reverse is probably true and lookism is more of a female burden.

Many incels seem to think from the mindset of a woman.

Coming from a traditional conservative family this mindset seems strange to me. Despite being sensitive about my height, lol. I always had the mindset that a man had to do more work to raise his sexual value, but at the very least he had more control of his destiny. Women most likely value social status and achievement more than men value such traits in women. Incels seem to be projecting the male mindset onto women. I just wonder if a more feminine centric upbringing can crystalize such sentiments.

 

[tall73]

I've encountered men who believe they're treated unfairly. They feel they're worthy suitors and resent the rejection they've experienced. I don't know what to tell them.

I wouldn't doubt that. Most people tend to think they are wantable.

I crossed paths with someone like that. He desired me and spent weeks raging about my rejection. His anger was unsettling. There was an undercurrent of violence I never forgot.

I wouldn't doubt that either. Which on the topic of guns is one reason some women carry, and get restraining orders.

But then, some women stalk too.

I have no opinion. I would never consider them anyway.

~Bella

If you are going to highlight your plight, don't you have any empathy for those in a similar plight on the other side of the coin? One of the people who characterized himself such posted and explained he gets pushback as well.

If not, then why would you expect empathy? None of this is a one way street.

 

[tall73]

For me I sometimes wonder if many incels come from single mother households and female dominated schools.

Any evidence would be anecdotally drawn from my acquaintances. And anecdotes are not evidence per se. But having said that, now that you mention it, the non-evidence lines up with your hypothesis in this case. In any case, it is a small sample size.

 

[bèlla]

I wouldn't doubt that. Most people tend to think they are wantable.

I like that word. Good choice.

If you are going to highlight your plight, don't you have any empathy for those in a similar plight on the other side of the coin? One of the people who characterized himself such posted and explained he gets pushback as well.

If not, then why would you expect empathy? None of this is a one way street.

I don't believe rejection supports violence of any sort. I don't expect anything. Why would you think that?

~Bella