Arizona mall shooter was angry incel

[variant]

Which societies are you talking about? The incel ones I hear are from Canada and various places in Europe. As far as other places, I'm sure violence raged from sexual unsuccessful men happens its just less categorized and acknowledged.

I am saying that our experience with mass shootings while not unique is quite acute compared to everyone else.

Helping men deal with sexual frustration in general, is one of those time honored social questions.

 

[tall73]

I think what it would take to actually successfully identify problems in this group of problems might also be problematic to civil liberties.

But yeah, we should probably be doing more of what we can.

I am afraid you are probably correct. How much role should society have in institutionalizing, requiring short-term treatment, etc. is part of the question.

We don't want pre-crime conviction. But it would be good if we could identify ways to help ahead of time.

 

[variant]

I am afraid you are probably correct. How much role should society have in institutionalizing, requiring short-term treatment, etc. is part of the question.

We don't want pre-crime conviction. But it would be good if we could identify ways to help ahead of time.

A government solution to a broad cultural issue is always going to be ham-fisted. Reforming a culture is one of those things that people have never properly mastered how to do.

 

[tall73]

A government solution to a broad cultural issue is always going to be ham-fisted. Reforming a culture is one of those things that people have never properly mastered how to do.

I think we would have to identify positive changes in society and how they occurred to know for sure. And it might help to distinguish between government mandate, government incentive, and government education.

For instance, smoking has declined, but is not outlawed. There is a negative incentive in punitive taxation. And there was a hit to companies through liability.

Some localities forbid smoking in various locations however, so that is more on the mandate side.

A lot of the change was due to education. And some is due to societal pressure.

 

[tall73]

I would disagree with the implication that shooting up random places is about gender rather than social construct itself.

Not every society has this problem as much as we do. So, something artificial has to be going on.

Certainly mass killings are distinct, but men do drive the overwhelming number of homicides in general, and mass killings specifically. Nor do I think that is a recent trend, or isolated to certain modern societies.

So while we can debate the role of social constructs, biology is still playing some role. Probably testosterone in particular.

 

[MehGuy]

I am saying that our experience with mass shootings while not unique is quite acute compared to everyone else.

Helping men deal with sexual frustration in general, is one of those time honored social questions.

I'm not sure how much mass shootings in general relate to sexually frustrated men. Isn't most of those shootings drug related?

 

[variant]

I'm not sure how much mass shootings in general relate to sexually frustrated men. Isn't most of those shootings drug related?

When killings are drug or crime related people are usually killing people they know for reasons we can understand. To address that problem you use the usual methods for dealing with crime.

When some kid decides it's time to go shoot some people he doesn't know something completely different is going on.

The latter is what I am talking about.

 

[tall73]

My daughter can lift more weight than most men can (although you'd never know by just looking at her) . If we define masculinity by strength (for instance) then what does that mean for the guy that has no interest whatsoever to lift weights? Is he somehow not masculine? Or worse....is he now effeminate? And my daughter is considered masculine? Do you see the issues with this?

Strength is a bit different than just societal expectations, though it is tied to that. It is a biological difference that you seem to acknowledge in the average male and female, or else your daughter's case would not be anything to talk about. Hormonal, skeletal differences, etc. are not just societal notions.

Now, do I think someone's masculinity is tied only to strength, or that your daughter, by virtue of strength is masculine? No.

But is strength part of a masculine ideal in most societies? Yes, and that is partly tied to biology.

 

[variant]

I think we would have to identify positive changes in society and how they occurred to know for sure. And it might help to distinguish between government mandate, government incentive, and government education.

For instance, smoking has declined, but is not outlawed. There is a negative incentive in punitive taxation. And there was a hit to companies through liability.

Some localities forbid smoking in various locations however, so that is more on the mandate side.

A lot of the change was due to education. And some is due to societal pressure.

Sure, I get where your going there, but getting people to understand how to have confidence, and love and respect each other, and develop a healthy relationship with the opposite sex, is a bit different than getting most people not to inhale addictive toxic substances for pleasure.

Also, getting fewer people to smoke is pretty tangible, getting no one to go nuts and go on a shooting spree is something we're going to have trouble even measuring.

 

[tall73]

When killings are drug or crime related people are usually killing people they know for reasons we can understand. To address that problem you use the usual methods for dealing with crime.

When some kid decides it's time to go shoot some people he doesn't know something completely different is going on.

The latter is what I am talking about.

Usually they refer to those as random target public setting mass shootings. Some lists only track those type as they can conflate with such things as family murder suicide scenarios, and drug related crime.

 

[variant]

Certainly mass killings are distinct, but men do drive the overwhelming number of homicides in general, and mass killings specifically. Nor do I think that is a recent trend, or isolated to certain modern societies.

So while we can debate the role of social constructs, biology is still playing some role. Probably testosterone in particular.

There was a whole stretch of human civilization where it was the men's fairly necessary job to form up in ranks and poke each other with sharp objects.

 

[tall73]

Sure, I get where your going there, but getting people to understand how to have confidence, and love and respect each other, and develop a healthy relationship with the opposite sex, is a bit different than getting most people not to inhale addictive toxic substances for pleasure.

Also, getting fewer people to smoke is pretty tangible, getting no one to go nuts and go on a shooting spree is something we're going to have trouble even measuring.

Yes, the potential driving factors are not as directly observable.

But let's approach this from the perspective of prevalence over time. If you look at the wikipedia entry the modern phenomenon tends to stem from online communities, be based on earlier examples, and has started in the last few decades.

So we have to ask what has changed in that time period? The internet is a big one, and much of the people appear to be radicalized there.

Now how do you deal with that without violating civil liberties? Not sure, but it is a place to start.

 

[tall73]

There was a whole stretch of human civilization where it was the men's fairly necessary job to form up in ranks and poke each other with sharp objects.

Agreed, and it was probably not by accident that this was more often the case for men than women.

And if you were talking to the men about to go out and fight then speeches about being a man made a bit more sense. Because then it was defending village, country, home, family, etc. that might characterize the masculinity.

Of course, in some cultures both fought. And in extremities, both would have to fight.

 

[variant]

Yes, the potential driving factors are not as directly observable.

But let's approach this from the perspective of prevalence over time. If you look at the wikipedia entry the modern phenomenon tends to stem from online communities, be based on earlier examples, and has started in the last few decades.

So we have to ask what has changed in that time period? The internet is a big one, and much of the people appear to be radicalized there.

Now how do you deal with that without violating civil liberties? Not sure, but it is a place to start.

The information revolution represents at least one massive social and cultural shift that we are seeing the fallout from.

You can see it across almost all cultural, political and social institutions. We probably have to come up with ways of dealing with such a shift over time, hopefully, retaining the good things like civil liberties.

 

[tall73]

The information revolution represents at least one massive social and cultural shift that we are seeing the fallout from.

You can see it across almost all cultural, political and social institutions. We probably have to come up with ways of dealing with such a shift over time, hopefully, retaining the good things like civil liberties.

Yeah, and that is the hard part. Governments or companies can impose limits on the internet interaction. And ultimately that may do more harm than still fairly rare violent actions. But is there a way to curb the latter without limiting rights.

 

[variant]

Agreed, and it was probably not by accident that this was more often the case for men than women.

And if you were talking to the men about to go out and fight then speeches about being a man made a bit more sense. Because then it was defending village, country, home, family, etc. that might characterize the masculinity.

Of course, in some cultures both fought. And in extremities, both would have to fight.

There are, ultimately, thousands of good/productive outlets for what lies at the base of the male experience.

If you think of masculinity as a driving forceful urge to act, it can be directed quite well at creative and productive endeavors. It just takes more skill, discipline, self control and education to direct it to good effect.

 

[variant]

Yeah, and that is the hard part. Governments or companies can impose limits on the internet interaction. And ultimately that may do more harm than still fairly rare violent actions. But is there a way to curb the latter without limiting rights.

The perspective here is that we currently live in the most peaceful era of human history. The key point is to preserve what makes that true while trying to improve where we may be going wrong.

 

[tall73]

There are, ultimately, thousands of good/productive outlets for what lies at the base of the male experience.

If you think of masculinity as a driving forceful urge to act, it can be directed quite well at creative and productive endeavors. It just takes more skill, discipline, self control and education to direct it to good effect.

Completely agree.

And that notion still recognizes biological difference on average, and the existence of masculinity,

 

[bèlla]

Many of these men loathe the autonomy women gained. They want to turn back the clock to a period when we were dependent on them for sustenance and survival. I think the current climate is a truth serum of sorts. Remove the need and you'll see how a person really feels.

Women are rejecting suitors more frequently. They're forgoing marriage and dating in some instances. But most men have no desire to be alone. They aren't content with friends and activities. They want a companion.

Some have a problem coping with aloneness. They don't resort to violence to resolve it. But they're angry nonetheless.

~Bella

 

[tall73]

The perspective here is that we currently live in the most peaceful era of human history. The key point is to preserve what makes that true while trying to improve where we may be going wrong.

Yes, and it is also not an accident that China, which is looking to extend its influence, is particularly making state driven campaigns aimed at reinforcing masculinity, and challenging alternate definitions of masculinity.

It is even more complicated by the long-running one child policy which limited the number of female potential mates.