Arizona mall shooter was angry incel

[mkgal1]

There are a lot of angry men who resent their circumstances. When I hear their spiel about women or beta men I know I've encountered a problem. You can't reason with them. Most are time bombs waiting to blow.

~Bella

Exactly. The phrases leak out really soon in conversations.

 

[tall73]

There are a lot of angry men who resent their circumstances. When I hear their spiel about women or beta men I know I've encountered a problem. You can't reason with them. Most are time bombs waiting to blow.

~Bella

There could be all kinds of factors that play a role. Ultimately the person makes the decision, and is accountable. But that does little good after the fact, as many of them take themselves out as well as the people they are directing their anger towards.

What role does society have in helping those who are struggling with these issues? And if so, what part of society?

What role do family have?

What role do religious groups have?

Factors I have seen mentioned, either by others, or incels:

a. lack of social development, and IRL interactions.
b. coalescing of like-minded people, but with interactions that turn negative, such as forums where people are encouraged to build resentment rather than deal with it.
c. inappropriate content, hook up culture, anything that drives objectification or notions of entitlement. In particular tube-type video inappropriate content that allows for constant searching for virtual novel mates which can reinforce addictive behavior by stimulating a biological drive. Or in Biblical terms, a continual lust for more. It is associated in some studies with increased early onset impotence as well, which certainly won't help in real life hooking up if that is a goal.
d. Younger generations performing worse economically than their predecessors on the whole. Data in the USA at least indicates that folks are living with parents longer, performing poorly economically, etc. This may make dating more difficult, and may feed resentment as well.
e. Online dating or apps-Some men have always been more attractive either physically, personality-wise, financially, etc. However, if dating is less about in-person interactions, and more about selecting from a pool of options, sometimes through swiping based on cursory observations, this may work against those who are unattractive, whether physically or otherwise.
f. Hatred of women, hatred of successful men, hatred of couples.
g. Sense of entitlement
h. poor upbringing or guidance on how to treat those you are attracted to.
i. low impulse control generally (can correlate with IQ, but unknown exactly why)
j. "A few millimeters of bone" (beauty standards).
k. Response to toxic femininity, downplaying of men's needs

etc.

How many of those play a role, or what others do, I guess is part of the question.

 

[tall73]

That ought to be what is critical to men (relationships...how well you've loved others). The fact that it is a shared value coincides with what the apostle Paul wrote about....does it not?

ETA: Jesus even summed up premium instruction to humanity into two points - love God....love others. To me...when a man has that as his main focus, he is being the best of masculinity. The polar opposite of toxic masculinity.

I have not argued against the importance of Jesus' statement, or the statement of the pastor in the video. I am noting that if you say all people should have that, then it is not defining what is true masculinity, but true humanity.

In other words, if you divide humanity in to feminine and masculine, then there must be defining characteristics, other than what is common to both (or in this case should be common to both as an ideal).

 

[mkgal1]

I have not argued against the importance of Jesus' statement, or the statement of the pastor in the video. I am noting that if you say all people should have that, then it is not defining what is true masculinity, but true humanity.

In other words, if you divide humanity in to feminine and masculine, then there must be defining characteristics, other than what is common to both (or in this case should be common to both as an ideal).

The point is....men cannot divorce their hearts from their minds (what it means to be fully human) and not have toxic attitudes (leading to toxic behavior).

 

[tall73]

That ought to be what is critical to men (relationships...how well you've loved others).

This might be more helpful. Can you list something that you would consider to be ideal or non-toxic, or positive masculinity that is not also part of femininity?

 

[tall73]

The point is....men cannot divorce their hearts from their minds (what it means to be fully human) and not have toxic attitudes (leading to toxic behavior).

Agreed! But then let's talk about toxic humanity.

 

[mkgal1]

In other words, if you divide humanity in to feminine and masculine, then there must be defining characteristics

It's when our culture begins defining how a person should be that problems begin (in my opinion).

My daughter can lift more weight than most men can (although you'd never know by just looking at her) . If we define masculinity by strength (for instance) then what does that mean for the guy that has no interest whatsoever to lift weights? Is he somehow not masculine? Or worse....is he now effeminate? And my daughter is considered masculine? Do you see the issues with this?

 

[tall73]

It's when our culture begins defining how a person should be that problems begin (in my opinion).

The role of culture communicating what is ideal to people is certainly at the heart of the notion of toxic masculinity, gender roles, etc.

But the more pressing question I am asking is whether you think there is a legitimate difference between masculine or feminine? If not then you should not be concerned about "toxic" masculinity, but the notion of masculinity to start with.

My daughter can lift more weight than most men can. If we define masculinity by strength (for instance) then what does that mean for the guy that has no interest whatsoever to lift weights? Is he somehow not masculine? Or worse....is he now effeminate? And my daughter is considered masculine? Do you see the issues with this?

I see lots of issues with people defining themselves in relations to an ideal on matters that are not critical. But I also think definitions can be helpful.

The question is whether there is such a thing as feminine and masculine.

Even before this is biological gender, and the notion of gender constructs if you consider such. Of course, you have implied in your statement male and female, but even that is not completely agreed on in society.

 

[variant]

This is the part of the thread where we don't talk about guns, correct?

We should definitely think about our policy of giving terrible people immediate and unquestioned access to as many guns and ammunition as they desire.

On the other hand, I applaud the good people of the U.S.A. for not sleeping with entitled misogynists with either personality disorders or the lack of maturity to treat others well.

The kid was 20 and instead of trying to make himself more appealing through self discipline and hard work, decided to go shoot up a mall.

 

[tall73]

On the other hand, I applaud the good people of the U.S.A. for not sleeping with entitled misogynists with either personality disorders or the lack of maturity to treat others well.

Well, he may not have reproduced in the natural sense, but if we don't figure out how to help those who have personality disorders or lack of maturity the good people of the USA may see a lot more reproduction of similar scenes.

 

[tall73]

Another factor, studies have been noting for some time a decline in empathy.

 

[variant]

Well, he may not have reproduced in the natural sense, but if we don't figure out how to help those who have personality disorders or lack of maturity the good people of the USA may see a lot more reproduction of similar scenes.

We're not even treating these people like they have a problem, it's a counterculture of self victimization (and isolation) that sometimes decides to lash out at others that have done them no harm.

 

[tall73]

We're not even treating these people like they have a problem, it's a counterculture of self victimization that sometimes decides to lash out at others that have done them no harm.

Agreed. But since we are the ones being lashed out against, we may need to find a way to help those in the counter culture that is productive.

 

[variant]

Agreed. But since we are the ones being lashed out against, we may need to find a way to help those in the counter culture that is productive.

Part of the problem is that they are socially isolated, and have a lot of bad sources for guidance, so, it's hard for the rest of society to identify their problems, talk them through it, and tell the kid that is (sigh) 20 that they have their whole lives to improve their situation.

It's hard to be a constructive influence on the self isolated.

 

[tall73]

Part of the problem is that they are socially isolated, and have a lot of bad sources for guidance, so, it's hard for the rest of society to identify their problems, talk them through it, and tell the kid that is (sigh) 20 that they have their whole lives to improve their situation.

It's hard to be a constructive influence on the self isolated.

Yes, but we may have to focus on them when they are in compulsory non-isolated situations in early development, such as school, etc.

It might help to start researching on the governmental level. How many of the people showed signs of troubled development or mental difficulties ahead of time? And could there be flags that could be used to identify possible treatment.

If there were not early signs, or developmental issues, that may be tough then to do anything other than focusing on responsibility.

Even then other factors seem to be involved. Overall life success seems to be a major factor. And since the recent generation is struggling in that, we may need to look into societal changes that have driven those trends.

 

[MehGuy]

Men will by and large always place much of their self worth on their sexual prowess with women. We are hardwired to compete with others. Given reproduction and how cheap male sperm is, why wouldn't a deep core of masculinity be based on how well a man can sleep with many other women? This isn't something you can simply claim is toxic masculinity and thus society needs to change what it means to be a man.

I don't know the answer to the problem, sadly sometimes there isn't one. Although I do not see what feminism and the screeching about toxic masculinity has done to relieve us of the incel problem. 10 years from now we'll probably still be having attacks and people will bring up the same old failed proposed solutions. If we want a chance at changing things we need to have a respect for biology and not assume everything about gender is a social construct that can simply be changed from a societal level.

 

[variant]

Yes, but we may have to focus on them when they are in compulsory non-isolated situations in early development, such as school, etc.

It might help to start researching on the governmental level. How many of the people showed signs of troubled development or mental difficulties ahead of time? And could there be flags that could be used to identify possible treatment.

If there were not early signs, or developmental issues, that may be tough then to do anything other than focusing on responsibility.

I think what it would take to actually successfully identify problems in this group of problems might also be problematic to civil liberties.

But yeah, we should probably be doing more of what we can.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Incel attacks have not been uncommon in the last few years. When this fact has been pointed out, some people complain because I guess they don't want a light shed on this depraved community. But it is important that we address this culture and the toxic masculinity that birthed it. Its very existence is partially a reflection of our society, and in the least, the type of behavior considered acceptable in society (i.e., the attitudes and ideas expressed in incel circles).

Just wanted to point out that the toxic masculinity we all think about today is not the same as biblical masculinity. Just didnt want to encourage the war on boys.

 

[variant]

Men will by and large always place much of their self worth on their sexual prowess with women. We are hardwired to compete with others. Given reproduction and how cheap male sperm is, why wouldn't a deep core of masculinity be based on how well a man can sleep with many other women? This isn't something you can simply claim is toxic masculinity and thus society needs to change what it means to be a man.

I don't know the answer to the problem, sadly sometimes there isn't one. Although I do not see what feminism and the screeching about toxic masculinity has done to relieve us of the incel problem. 10 years from now we'll probably still be having attacks and people will bring up the same old failed proposed solutions. If we want a chance at changing things we need to have a respect for biology and not assume everything about gender is a social construct that can simply be changed from a societal level.

I would disagree with the implication that shooting up random places is about gender rather than social construct itself.

Not every society has this problem as much as we do. So, something artificial has to be going on.

 

[MehGuy]

I would disagree with the implication that shooting up random places is about gender rather than social construct itself.

Not every society has this problem as much as we do. So, something artificial has to be going on.

Which societies are you talking about? The incel ones I hear are from Canada and various places in Europe. As far as other places, I'm sure violence raged from sexual unsuccessful men happens its just less categorized and acknowledged.