Arizona Court of Appeals rules in favor of SS couple, based on SC Masterpiece ruling

[Bible2+]

Logic Over Emotionalism said in post #817:

If this was a case of the owner refusing to sell cakes or stuff on display that would be discrimination.

Not if the owner was informed that the cake was going to be used to celebrate a sinful activity.

For the Christian religion requires that Christians not support any sinful activity (Ephesians 5:11).

So forcing them to support any sinful activity denies them their First Amendment right to the "free exercise" of their religion.

It's the same with the right to free speech. It includes the right not to be forced to support any speech which one disagrees with (Harris v. Quinn).

And just as not supporting a speech by a homosexual is not discrimination against that person in himself, so not supporting a sinful activity by a homosexual is not discrimination against that person in himself.

 

[Bible2+]

SilverBear said in post #820:

Constitutional rights are based on the Constitution not on opinion polls.

Where in the Constitution are homosexuals a protected class based on their orientation?

SilverBear said in post #820:

. . . the rhetoric and justifications of racism are indistinguishable from the rhetoric and justifications of homophobia . . .

Not at all.

For being black is not a sin, or bad in any way at all. But homosexual activity is a sin (Romans 1:26-27).

Also, the word "homophobia" is a garbage word. It needs to go into the trash. For no one has a "phobia" (fear) of homosexuals, like many people have a "phobia" (fear) of spiders, giving rise to the valid word: "arachnophobia".

SilverBear said in post #820:

. . . all the evidence shows that sexual orientation is inborn . . .

Homosexuality has never been proven to be genetic.

And Christian Gay Conversion Therapy can help some gay Christians to become straight, or at least to no longer practice homosexuality.

For Jesus Christ has the power to deliver Christians from slavery to any sin (John 8:34-36).

Also, even if homosexuality could ever be proven to be genetic, so could alcoholism, criminal violence, and schizophrenia. Human genes in their current, fallen, corrupted state have nothing to do with proving what is moral, or what is good mental health.

 

[Logic Over Emotionalism]

and at the time Martin Luther King Jr was saying this about 70% of American's believed that racial equality was wrong. Did that belief make racial equality wrong?

Constitutional rights are based on the Constitution not on opinion polls.

and how does Martin Luther King Jr misinformation of the topic in any way change the fact that the rhetoric and justifications of racism are indistinguishable from the rhetoric and justifications of homophobia?


it cannot be proven that disease is caused by microscopic organisms but just like all the evidence shows that sexual orientation is inborn all the evidence says bacteria and viruses are what's behind disease.


Evidence?

70%? Source please.

Yet you agree with religious discrimination.. interesting.

What Martin Luther King Jr said was not fully inaccurate as it is "culturally acquired". Plus as I said in my last post race is something you are clearly and visibly born with, where homosexuality is not something you are born with that can be proven, so it is not even in the same ball park.

Sources please.

I gave sources to show the damage that divorce and sexual abuse plays in to adulthood and in future relationships. If these can negatively impact relationships that will play vital in growing a healthy sexual view then there must be some healthy ways that will impact you too, would you agree? Even parents who deal with alcoholism have lasting effects on children on to adulthood with relationship issues ( source last link). Sex is very much tied to social interactions and our childhood. The fact is we see that childhood experiences and interactions play a vital role in to our relationships. There is no studies that prove that homosexuals are "born that way". That until proven is pure emotionalism and is void of any factuality.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experimentations/201707/6-ways-rough-childhood-can-affect-adult-relationships?amp

https://steinhardt.nyu.edu/appsych/opus/issues/2013/spring/blockspiegel

https://www.google.com/amp/keepkidssafe.org/6-ways-molestation-affects-adult-survivors/amp/

https://www.businessinsider.com/effects-of-childhood-activities-2011-10

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mindful-anger/201708/4-ways-traumatic-childhood-affects-adult-relationships?amp

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-effects-of-parental-alcoholism-on-children-67233

 

[SilverBear]

Yet you disagree with religious discrimination.. interesting.

no one is preventing anyone from prayer
or attending chiurch
or reading the bible
No one is being denied good and services form merchants because of their religion


Christians aren't being discriminated against.

What Martin Luther King Jr said was not fully inaccurate as it is "culturally acquired". Plus as I said in my last post race is something you are clearly and visibly born with, where homosexuality is not something you are born with that can be proven, so it is not even in the same ball park.

and as i said - it's can't be proven that bacteria and viruses are the cause of illness and disease but all the evidence says that they are the source of disease.

I gave sources to show the damage that divorce and sexual abuse plays in to adulthood and in future relationships. If these can negatively impact relationships that will play vital in growing a healthy sexual view then there must be some healthy ways that will impact you too, would you agree? Even parents who deal with alcoholism have lasting effects on children on to adulthood with relationship issues ( source last link). Sex is very much tied to social interactions and our childhood. The fact is we see that childhood experiences and interactions play a vital role in to our relationships. There is no studies that prove that homosexuals are "born that way". That until proven is pure emotionalism and is void of any factuality.

actually there are quite a lot of studies showing that orientation is inborn.

There however are no studies showing orientation is a choice or that it can be change. There are no studies showing a causal link between childhood experiences and sexual orientation. None

 

[SilverBear]

Where in the Constitution are homosexuals a protected class based on their orientation?

the constitution protects all people, even the ones you choose to hate.

Not at all.

yes all

Also, the word "homophobia" is a garbage word. It needs to go into the trash. For no one has a "phobia" (fear) of homosexuals, like many people have a "phobia" (fear) of spiders, giving rise to the valid word: "arachnophobia".

Homophobia - an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It includes antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and hatred of homosexuals



it is an accurate word and one that applies quite well to you. If you don't like it being applied to you then you may wish to examine your words and actions and change them

Homosexuality has never been proven to be genetic.

Being left handed has never been proven to be genetic.

Homosexuality has never been proven to be a choice. it has never been proven to be a pathology. it has never been proven to be the result of how one was raised. it has never been proven that people can change orientation.

There is however a LOT of evidence that sexual orientation is inborn. But no evidence for choice or change or being raised or anything else.

And Christian Gay Conversion Therapy can help some gay Christians to become straight, or at least to no longer practice homosexuality.

zero evidence that anyone has ever changed orientation

For Jesus Christ has the power to deliver Christians from slavery to any sin (John 8:34-36).

but you can't pray the gay away. so maybe it isn't the sin you want it to be

Also, even if homosexuality could ever be proven to be genetic, so could alcoholism, criminal violence, and schizophrenia. Human genes in their current, fallen, corrupted state have nothing to do with proving what is moral, or what is good mental health.

It could also be proven that homophobia is genetic so maybe there is hope for a cure.

 

[Logic Over Emotionalism]

no one is preventing anyone from prayer
or attending chiurch
or reading the bible
No one is being denied good and services form merchants because of their religion


Christians aren't being discriminated against.



and as i said - it's can't be proven that bacteria and viruses are the cause of illness and disease but all the evidence says that they are the source of disease.


actually there are quite a lot of studies showing that orientation is inborn.

There however are no studies showing orientation is a choice or that it can be change. There are no studies showing a causal link between childhood experiences and sexual orientation. None

Yet you are the only one to not show one single source for any of your claims. I have showed sources for everything I have said. So unless you can back up what you are saying it is merely an opinion and does not hold water. Also I didn't use the word choice I said it is a learned behavior just like the forming of any relationship can be traced to our childhood. This is why in sex therapy or even sex offender treatment childhood is always brought up as it is a key of how you view sex and relationships in adulthood. Even sexual satisfaction can be impacted during your childhood (link below).

http://www.sexhealthmatters.org/new...ld-influence-sexual-satisfaction-in-adulthood

https://www.jordangrayconsulting.com/2014/02/childhood-messing-love-life/

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/marcia-...-between-childhood-experiences_b_9212340.html

https://energeticsinstitute.com.au/early-life-attachment-affects-adult-relationships/

Great book on how sex impacts us as adults by Dr. Aline P. Zoldbrod:

https://www.amazon.com/SexSmart-Childhood-Shaped-Sexual-Transform/dp/1440159343

When you force a business owner to create something custom that goes against his or her religious beliefs it becomes discrimination. If the business owner would of denied something that was on display that would be a different story. But when you are asked to create something custom you may use those talents in a way that does not violate your religious convictions. In the Supreme Court ruling we witnessed the court standing up against religious discrimination when a gay couple wanted a custom made cake. If this case in Arizona ever goes to the supreme court the gay couple will lose as this is discrimination, unless you believe that your rights end when you are a business owner or on the job?

 

[Logic Over Emotionalism]

the constitution protects all people, even the ones you choose to hate.


Homophobia - an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It includes antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and hatred of homosexuals



it is an accurate word and one that applies quite well to you. If you don't like it being applied to you then you may wish to examine your words and actions and change them

You assume a lot about Bible2 like he hates homosexuals or that he has a fear of them, without any factual backing. When you say "ones you choose to hate" or (Homophobia) "accurate word and one that applies quite well to you" without any substance is just a blind attack on someone's opinion that you have no factual backing if he does in fact hate or fear gay people. This is an attack from pure emotionalism without any factual evidence to show.

 

[SilverBear]

Yet you are the only one to not show one single source for any of your claims.

you mean like my statement that it can't be proven that bacteria and viruses are the cause of illness and disease?
Well it is demonstrable on several levels. the primary one being that nothing in science is ever considered proven. This is why the idea of microscopic organisms being becasue of disease is called germ theory. the same can be said of atomic theory. Genetic theory, the theory of gravity and the theory of special relativity.

I have showed sources for everything I have said.

but what your sources say and what you say are not one and the same.

So unless you can back up what you are saying it is merely an opinion and does not hold water. Also I didn't use the word choice I said it is a learned behavior just like the forming of any relationship can be traced to our childhood.

and you provided no evidence of that sexual orientation is a learned behavior

http://www.sexhealthmatters.org/new...ld-influence-sexual-satisfaction-in-adulthood

this doesn't even mention homosexuality or the formation of sexual orientation.

https://www.jordangrayconsulting.com/2014/02/childhood-messing-love-life/

the blog of a relationship coach (what ever that is) is evidence that someone wrote a blog and again no mention of homosexuality

https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/marcia-...-between-childhood-experiences_b_9212340.html

https://energeticsinstitute.com.au/early-life-attachment-affects-adult-relationships/

nothing in these either

Great book on how sex impacts us as adults by Dr. Aline P. Zoldbrod:

https://www.amazon.com/SexSmart-Childhood-Shaped-Sexual-Transform/dp/1440159343

chapter 4 of this book spells out the opposite of yoru claim.

When you force a business owner to create something custom that goes against his or her religious beliefs it becomes discrimination. If the business owner would of denied something that was on display that would be a different story.

you mean like an advertised service like the making of wedding cakes....which Masterpiece bakery did advertise as a service it provides

But when you are asked to create something custom you may use those talents in a way that does not violate your religious convictions. In the Supreme Court ruling we witnessed the court standing up against religious discrimination when a gay couple wanted a custom made cake. If this case in Arizona ever goes to the supreme court the gay couple will lose as this is discrimination, unless you believe that your rights end when you are a business owner or on the job?

do you believe that constitutional rights are tossed aside if you are a minority?

 

[SilverBear]

You assume a lot about Bible2 like he hates homosexuals or that he has a fear of them, without any factual backing. When you say "ones you choose to hate" or (Homophobia) "accurate word and one that applies quite well to you" without any substance is just a blind attack on someone's opinion that you have no factual backing if he does in fact hate or fear gay people. This is an attack from pure emotionalism without any factual evidence to show.

if he were posting what he has here but about black people, that being black is the same as being a substance abuser it would be called hate.

If he was associating Jews with people who sexually abuse children, it would be called hate.

If he was asserting that the handicapped don't have constitutional rights and protections because they aren't mentioned in the constitution that would be considered to be hate

 

[Logic Over Emotionalism]

you mean like my statement that it can't be proven that bacteria and viruses are the cause of illness and disease?
Well it is demonstrable on several levels. the primary one being that nothing in science is ever considered proven. This is why the idea of microscopic organisms being becasue of disease is called germ theory. the same can be said of atomic theory. Genetic theory, the theory of gravity and the theory of special relativity.



but what your sources say and what you say are not one and the same.



and you provided no evidence of that sexual orientation is a learned behavior

this doesn't even mention homosexuality or the formation of sexual orientation.

the blog of a relationship coach (what ever that is) is evidence that someone wrote a blog and again no mention of h I look homosexuality

nothing in these either

chapter 4 of this book spells out the opposite of yoru claim.

you mean like an advertised service like the making of wedding cakes....which Masterpiece bakery did advertise as a service it provides


do you believe that constitutional rights are tossed aside if you are a minority?

You totally miss the point that I am making. The point is that sexuality is a learned behavior and if it is, then so would homosexuality.

From some of the links that I provided:

"Many sex therapy patients work through past childhood sexual abuse. But can other childhood experiences add to sexual problems? Recently, scientists addressed this in relation to sexual satisfaction in the Journal of Sexual Medicine.

The researchers focused on what they called cumulative adverse childhood experiences (CACEs).

The researchers found that 58% of the women and 52% of the men had at least four types of CACEs. Sexual satisfaction was similar for both men and women, with average GMSEX scores of 21 points.

The results could help sex therapists better understand their patients’ backgrounds"

From link:

http://www.sexhealthmatters.org/new...ld-influence-sexual-satisfaction-in-adulthood

Developmental trauma is more common than many of us realize. According to the National Child Traumatic Stress Network, 78 percent of children reported more than one traumatic experience before the age of 5. Twenty percent of children up to the age of 6 were receiving treatment for traumatic experiences, including sexual abuse, neglect, exposure to domestic violence, and traumatic loss or bereavement.

Adults who suffer from developmental trauma may go on to develop Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or "cPTSD," which is characterized by difficulties in emotional regulation, consciousness and memory, self-perception, distorted perceptions of perpetrators of abuse, difficulties in relationships with other people, and negative effects on the meaningfulness of life.

The task of identity development in adulthood, challenging enough (though rewarding) for those with a secure, safe, and enriching upbringing, is especially fraught for those grappling with the aftermath of developmental trauma. Because of developmental delays and the adult consequences of trauma, which often include substance abuse, eating disorders, depression, higher risk for many healthproblems, behavioral issues, and difficulty in personal relationships and professional development, identity development gets stuck.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experimentations/201707/6-ways-rough-childhood-can-affect-adult-relationships?amp

sexual functioning and sexual identity in adolescence and adulthood is a particularly vulnerable factor in survivors. When a child suffers sexual abuse, sexual arousal becomes activated prematurely and can largely impact the survivor’s sense of autonomy over their body and sexual sense of self (Roller, Martsolf, Draucker & Ross, 2009).

This fusion of shame, secrecy and pleasure has the potential to predispose one to sexual aversion, sexual anorexia, dysfunction, or compulsion; thereby deterring them from developing healthy sexual scripts in adulthood.

https://www.themeadows.com/blog/item/762-the-impact-of-childhood-sexual-abuse-on-adult-sexuality

This article concerns itself with the key role that the infant bonding with its mother will go on to significantly shape the now adult person's ability to approach, enter, maintain and be healthy within adult intimate relationships.

All human beings require an effective social engagement system in order to build attachment and affiliative relationships (Porges:2004). This social engagement system develops and is influenced by early attachment experiences that the infant has with its caregivers, and will shape how it deals with and regulates internal and external forms of stimulation(Siegel:1999).

We as human beings are only born with limited capacities for self-regulation. We learn and are dependent on those attachment relationships with our care givers to give us our context by which we as adults will then have lifelong tendencies for regulating arousal of stimulus and reactions that we will engage with as a result (Ogden:2006).

https://energeticsinstitute.com.au/early-life-attachment-affects-adult-relationships/

We can see that sex is developed during and throughout our childhood. Unless we are born sexual. Do you believe that babies and toddlers are born sexual? If not then it must be learned through our childhood as most things are.

 

[Logic Over Emotionalism]

if he were posting what he has here but about black people, that being black is the same as being a substance abuser it would be called hate.

If he was associating Jews with people who sexually abuse children, it would be called hate.

If he was asserting that the handicapped don't have constitutional rights and protections because they aren't mentioned in the constitution that would be considered to be hate

First how is any of this or what was said fearful? You said "accurate word" that discribed Homophobia "applies quite well to you", yet this word does not fit with what was being said.

To try to compare gay rights to racism is not in the same ball park as racism. Being black or a Jew is something you are clearly and visibly born with, homosexuality is not proven to be so. Plus handicaps have medical conditions still not comparable to that of gay rights unless you are saying it is a handicap. You try to use blind emotionalism to attack someone without any factuality to those attacks which is a very unhealthy worldview to have.

Plus to your first statement what if someone used "black is the same as being a substance abuser" I wouldn't call that hate but misinformation. Yes drinking problems do exist in the black community but so is the opioid epidemic in the white community. So I try to attack the misinformation not the person which is against the rules on this site.

 

[SilverBear]

You totally miss the point that I am making. The point is that sexuality is a learned behavior and if it is, then so would homosexuality.

From some of the links that I provided:

"Many sex therapy patients work through past childhood sexual abuse. But can other childhood experiences add to sexual problems? Recently, scientists addressed this in relation to sexual satisfaction in the Journal of Sexual Medicine.

first homosexuality isn't a problem
Second you won't find any evidence that gay men had a greater incidence of childhood sexual abuse than straight men.
even with point two accepting this leaves the fact that most gay men were not sexually abuse as children and many heterosexual men were. If you are going to claim it is a mechanic in the development of adult sexual orientation you have to account for the inconsistent way it affects individuals

The researchers focused on what they called cumulative adverse childhood experiences (CACEs).

The researchers found that 58% of the women and 52% of the men had at least four types of CACEs. Sexual satisfaction was similar for both men and women, with average GMSEX scores of 21 points.

The results could help sex therapists better understand their patients’ backgrounds"

From link:

http://www.sexhealthmatters.org/new...ld-influence-sexual-satisfaction-in-adulthood

that would be a positive outcome from a very negative experience but there is no connection to homosexuality.

Developmental

trauma is more common than many of us realize. According to the National Child Traumatic Stress Network, 78 percent of children reported more than one traumatic experience before the age of 5. Twenty percent of children up to the age of 6 were receiving treatment for traumatic experiences, including sexual abuse, neglect, exposure to domestic violence, and traumatic loss or bereavement.

Adults who suffer from developmental trauma may go on to develop Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or "cPTSD," which is characterized by difficulties in emotional regulation, consciousness and memory, self-perception, distorted perceptions of perpetrators of abuse, difficulties in relationships with other people, and negative effects on the meaningfulness of life.

The task of identity development in adulthood, challenging enough (though rewarding) for those with a secure, safe, and enriching upbringing, is especially fraught for those grappling with the aftermath of developmental trauma. Because of developmental delays and the adult consequences of trauma, which often include substance abuse, eating disorders, depression, higher risk for many healthproblems, behavioral issues, and difficulty in personal relationships and professional development, identity development gets stuck.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experimentations/201707/6-ways-rough-childhood-can-affect-adult-relationships?amp

and still no connection to homosexuality.

Sexual functioning and sexual identity in adolescence and adulthood is a particularly vulnerable factor in survivors. When a child suffers sexual abuse, sexual arousal becomes activated prematurely and can largely impact the survivor’s sense of autonomy over their body and sexual sense of self (Roller, Martsolf, Draucker & Ross, 2009).

This fusion of shame, secrecy and pleasure has the potential to predispose one to sexual aversion, sexual anorexia, dysfunction, or compulsion; thereby deterring them from developing healthy sexual scripts in adulthood.

https://www.themeadows.com/blog/item/762-the-impact-of-childhood-sexual-abuse-on-adult-sexuality

and this same study says: "there was no relationship between their sexual orientation and their CSA (child sexual abuse)."

This article concerns itself with the key role that the infant bonding with its mother will go on to significantly shape the now adult person's ability to approach, enter, maintain and be healthy within adult intimate relationships.

All human beings require an effective social engagement system in order to build attachment and affiliative relationships (Porges:2004). This social engagement system develops and is influenced by early attachment experiences that the infant has with its caregivers, and will shape how it deals with and regulates internal and external forms of stimulation(Siegel:1999).

We as human beings are only born with limited capacities for self-regulation. We learn and are dependent on those attachment relationships with our care givers to give us our context by which we as adults will then have lifelong tendencies for regulating arousal of stimulus and reactions that we will engage with as a result (Ogden:2006).

https://energeticsinstitute.com.au/early-life-attachment-affects-adult-relationships/

We can see that sex is developed during and throughout our childhood. Unless we are born sexual. Do you believe that babies and toddlers are born sexual? If not then it must be learned through our childhood as most things are.

or more likely the woring is part of our makeup and set before birth, such wring remains dormant until the individuals enters puberty and becomes sexually aware.

 

[SilverBear]

First how is any of this or what was said fearful? You said "accurate word" that discribed Homophobia "applies quite well to you", yet this word does not fit with what was being said.

Homophobia - an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It includes antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and hatred of homosexuals

To try to compare gay rights to racism is not in the same ball park as racism. Being black or a Jew is something you are clearly and visibly born with, homosexuality is not proven to be so. Plus handicaps have medical conditions still not comparable to that of gay rights unless you are saying it is a handicap. You try to use blind emotionalism to attack someone without any factuality to those attacks which is a very unhealthy worldview to have.

I will say it again since you didn't seem to understand the first time.

I am not comparing homosexuality to race. that is a straw man you have constructed

i am however comparing racism to homophobia. I'm not comparing the minorities, I'm comparing the individuals who justify and promote prejudice and discrimination against minorities.

Do you see the difference?

Plus to your first statement what if someone used "black is the same as being a substance abuser" I wouldn't call that hate but misinformation. Yes drinking problems do exist in the black community but so is the opioid epidemic in the white community. So I try to attack the misinformation not the person which is against the rules on this site.

like racism those who attack homosexuals often purposefully present misinformation

Again...please read what was written
no one is talking about any sort of rates of alcoholism. The issue is claiming that a minority is morally indistinguishable from those who abuse substances or break the law or abuse children.

 

[Bible2+]

SilverBear said in post #824:

no one is preventing anyone from prayer

The Supreme Court is, by illegally denying the "free exercise" of religion in the schools, which free exercise is mandated by the First Amendment.

"Engel" must be overturned as soon as possible, just as "Roe" must be, and the horrible decision legalizing same-sex marriage, which has made a complete mockery of marriage.

SilverBear said in post #824:

No one is being denied good and services form merchants because of their religion

Biblical-Christian business owners are being attacked by homosexuals in order to deny them having any business at all, just as when the Nazis went after the Jews, they made sure to attack Jewish businesses.

What we are witnessing today is the Kristallnacht stage of the homosexual persecution of Biblical Christians.

Ultimately, there will be a Biblical Christian Holocaust, perpetrated by the whole world (Matthew 24:9-13).

(There may be some people whose mouths water at the very thought of this.)

SilverBear said in post #824:

Christians aren't being discriminated against.

Of course they are.

For homosexuals are bullying Biblical Christians by trying to force them in the courts to deny their religion, or lose their businesses.

SilverBear said in post #824:

. . . it's can't be proven that bacteria and viruses are the cause of illness and disease but all the evidence says that they are the source of disease.

But all the evidence does not say that homosexuality is genetic.

SilverBear said in post #824:

actually there are quite a lot of studies showing that orientation is inborn.

If that were true, then the orientation of pedophilia would be inborn.

SilverBear said in post #824:

There however are no studies showing orientation is a choice or that it can be change.

Of course it can change for a Christian, just as any other sinful activity can end (John 8:34-36).

*******

SilverBear said in post #825:

[Re: Where in the Constitution are homosexuals a protected class based on their orientation?]

the constitution protects all people, even the ones you choose to hate.

Note that there has been no hatred shown toward homosexuals.

Also, if the Constitution protects all people, no matter what their orientation, then it protects pedophiles, who are oriented toward children.

And so a hotel would have to rent a room to a pedophile and his 13-year-old lover, or else the hotel would be charged with "discrimination".

SilverBear said in post #825:

[Re: It's not true at all that the rhetoric and justifications of racism are indistinguishable from the rhetoric and justifications of homophobia]

yes all

No, for racism is against the Bible.

SilverBear said in post #825:

Homophobia - an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. It includes antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and hatred of homosexuals

This is a word invented out of whole cloth to support an agenda against Biblical Christianity.

It's an Orwellian abuse of the language. It's sinister. And its calumny.

For Christians don't do any of those things, but simply state from the Bible that homosexuality is sinful (Romans 1:26-27), and that Christians must not support any sinful activity (Ephesians 5:11).

SilverBear said in post #825:

Being left handed has never been proven to be genetic.

Whether it is or not, it is not a sin.

SilverBear said in post #825:

Homosexuality has never been proven to be a choice.

It has never been proven to not be a choice.

It's not like homosexuals are robots with no free will.

SilverBear said in post #825:

it has never been proven to be a pathology.

All sin is a pathology of the soul.

And homosexuality is indeed a "pathology" in the sense of it being "something abnormal" and a "deviation from propriety" (Webster's).

For homosexuality is "against nature" (Romans 1:26-27) in the sense of how God created nature to work (Matthew 19:4-5).

God never intended for males to become sexually joined or married to other males, just as God never intended for females to become sexually joined or married to other females.

SilverBear said in post #825:

it has never been proven to be the result of how one was raised.

It has never been proven to not be the result of how one was raised.

That is, homosexuality could be the result of how one was raised, that is, based on poor "nurture", rather than "nature".

For example, boys who grew up without paternal love could be more likely to become gay.

And girls who grew up without maternal love could be more likely to become lesbians.

That is, their sexual orientation is a desperate striving for the love which they never got as children.

SilverBear said in post #825:

it has never been proven that people can change orientation.

Of course it has. For people who used to be gay can live heterosexual lives, with wives and children.

*******

SilverBear said in post #832:

first homosexuality isn't a problem

The Bible says that it is, just as any other sin.

 

[SilverBear]

The Supreme Court is, by illegally denying the "free exercise" of religion in the schools, which free exercise is mandated by the First Amendment.

repeating false information doesn't make it true

Biblical-Christian business owners are being attacked by homosexuals in order to deny them having any business at all, just as when the Nazis went after the Jews, they made sure to attack Jewish businesses.

repeating false information doesn't make it true

Of course they are.

For homosexuals are bullying Biblical Christians by trying to force them in the courts to deny their religion, or lose their businesses.

repeating false information doesn't make it true

But all the evidence does not say that homosexuality is genetic.

then please reference an example of this evidence.

If that were true, then the orientation of pedophilia would be inborn.

repeating false information doesn't make it true

Of course it can change for a Christian, just as any other sinful activity can end (John 8:34-36).

repeating false information doesn't make it true

Note that there has been no hatred shown toward homosexuals.

repeating false information doesn't make it true

Also, if the Constitution protects all people, no matter what their orientation, then it protects pedophiles, who are oriented toward children.

[/quote] repeating false information doesn't make it true

And so a hotel would have to rent a room to a pedophile and his 13-year-old lover, or else the hotel would be charged with "discrimination".

repeating false information doesn't make it true

No, for racism is against the Bible.

in your opinion

This is a word invented out of whole cloth to support an agenda against Biblical Christianity.

repeating false information doesn't make it true

It's an Orwellian abuse of the language. It's sinister. And its calumny.

you are the expert on calumny

For Christians don't do any of those things, but simply state from the Bible that homosexuality is sinful

repeating false information doesn't make it true

Whether it is or not, it is not a sin.

left handedness is an alteration in the hard wiring of the brain that occurs in a small percent of the population. It is inborn just as being right handed is inborn. There is also no proof that being left handed is genetic. This lack of absolute "proof" doesn't change the fact that left handedness is inborn. saying it is or is not a sin doesn't change the truth that it is inborn.

It has never been proven to not be a choice.

Actually it has. The very fact that one cannot change orientation at will is evidence that it is not a choice.

If you would like to pretend other wise then please demonstrate how easy it is and change your orientation and go on living your life as a homosexual for...oh lets say ten years.

It's not like homosexuals are robots with no free will.

again go ahead and show us all that you have free will and change your orientation.

All sin is a pathology of the soul.

like presenting false witness?

And homosexuality is indeed a "pathology" in the sense of it being "something abnormal" and a "deviation from propriety" (Webster's).

being left handed is something abnormal. are you saying left handed people are diseased?

For homosexuality is "against nature" (Romans 1:26-27) in the sense of how God created nature to work (Matthew 19:4-5).

repeating false information doesn't make it true

God never intended for males to become sexually joined or married to other males, just as God never intended for females to become sexually joined or married to other females.

It must be terribly convenient that what God intends is always what you want

It has never been proven to not be the result of how one was raised.

Wrong again. hundreds even thousands of studies over decades can't find any common mechanism or situation leading to homosexuality.

That is, homosexuality could be the result of how one was raised, that is, based on poor "nurture", rather than "nature".

Hundreds or thousands of studies....no evidence to support this at all

For example, boys who grew up without paternal love could be more likely to become gay.

no evidence

And girls who grew up without maternal love could be more likely to become lesbians.

no evidence

That is, their sexual orientation is a desperate striving for the love which they never got as children.

and no evidence

Of course it has. For people who used to be gay can live heterosexual lives, with wives and children.

*******

and they are still gay

The Bible says that it is, just as any other sin.

no that is just your personal hatred shining through

 

[Bible2+]

SilverBear said in post #835:

repeating false information doesn't make it true

That's right.

But note that what has been presented has not been proven to be false.

SilverBear said in post #835:

[Re: But all the evidence does not say that homosexuality is genetic]

...then please reference an example of this evidence.

You may have misread what was said.

For what was said was not that all the evidence says that homosexuality is not genetic. For it very well could have some genetic components. But so could schizophrenia, for example. So genes today aren't necessarily good.

And the Bible makes clear that homosexuality is not good (Romans 1:26-27).

SilverBear said in post #835:

[Re: Racism is against the Bible]

...in your opinion

No, according to what the Bible itself shows.

For God accepted Moses marrying an Ethiopian woman, whereas Miriam was turned leprous white for looking down on Moses for doing that (Numbers 12). It was as if God were saying: "Do not exalt white skin". For the natural color of one's skin matters no more to God than the natural color of one's eyes. For He has made all humans of one blood (Acts 17:26-28). And God saves people of every nationality (Revelation 5:9b).

SilverBear said in post #835:

[Re: Left-handedness]

saying it is or is not a sin doesn't change the truth that it is inborn.

Note that even if it were inborn, it is different than homosexuality in that the latter is a sin, just as pedophilia is a sin, and could also be an inborn orientation.

SilverBear said in post #835:

The very fact that one cannot change orientation at will is evidence that it is not a choice.

Orientation is defined by behavior, which is a choice.

SilverBear said in post #835:

If you would like to pretend other wise then please demonstrate how easy it is and change your orientation and go on living your life as a homosexual for...oh lets say ten years.

Heterosexual men who are sent to prison for many years can come out gay, for they learn in prison that homosexual behavior can be very pleasurable, even more so than heterosexuality. And so they can choose to stick with gay sex, and never go back.

SilverBear said in post #835:

It must be terribly convenient that what God intends is always what you want

Note that it is the Bible which shows what God intends (e.g. Matthew 19:4-5).

SilverBear said in post #835:

[Re: Homosexuality could be the result of how one was raised]

Hundreds or thousands of studies....no evidence to support this at all

How has it been proven that how one was raised can not contribute to homosexuality, or to pedophilia for that matter?

SilverBear said in post #835:

[Re: People who used to be gay can live heterosexual lives, with wives and children]

...and they are still gay

Not if they no longer practice gay behavior.

Also, without a change in their orientation there would be no arousal for their heterosexual behavior.

 

[SilverBear]

That's right.

But note that what has been presented has not been proven to be false.

yeah it has. please be honest.
Students have every right to pray in school. They cannot disrupt class with it, they can't force others to participate with them, the school can't set or enforce prayer time or activity.

here is the ruling on Engel v Vitale, the ruling you continuously misrepresent read it.

You may have misread what was said.

For what was said was not that all the evidence says that homosexuality is not genetic. For it very well could have some genetic components.

All the evidence, yes all of it, says that sexual orientation is inborn. Deal with it

And the Bible makes clear that homosexuality is not good (Romans 1:26-27).

the bible also makes it far more clear that tattoos and shrimp scampi are not good.

No, according to what the Bible itself shows.

your opinion, not everyone shares it.

just as pedophilia is a sin, and could also be an inborn orientation.

please stop lying about peodphilia

Orientation is defined by behavior, which is a choice.

changing the definition to further your agenda is just dishonest.

Heterosexual men who are sent to prison for many years can come out gay, for they learn in prison that homosexual behavior can be very pleasurable, even more so than heterosexuality. And so they can choose to stick with gay sex, and never go back.

Bull




Again If you would like to pretend that orientation is a choice then please demonstrate how easy it is and change your orientation and go on living your life as a homosexual for...oh lets say ten years.

 

[Bible2+]

SilverBear said in post #837:

Students have every right to pray in school.

No, they don't. Not since Engel.

SilverBear said in post #837:

They cannot disrupt class with it, they can't force others to participate with them, the school can't set or enforce prayer time or activity.

They cannot even have a voluntary, pre-planned prayer at the start of the class which is agreed to by all of the students.

Instead, the Supreme Court has illegally denied the "free exercise" of religion in the schools, which free exercise is supposed to be protected by the First Amendment.

SilverBear said in post #837:

All the evidence, yes all of it, says that sexual orientation is inborn.

Note that that has never been proven.

Also, we can't trust so-called "scientific" studies today which purport that homosexuality can be nothing but "nature" instead of "nurture", because all such studies start out with the presuppositions of "political correctness". If any study's results began to undermine these presuppositions, the study would be immediately abandoned as "flawed". Otherwise, the scientists involved would have their careers completely destroyed by their universities and the media.

For the universities and the media have been swallowed whole by "political correctness".

It's a black hole which lets no light (truth) escape.

"Political correctness" is the death of truth.

Even conservative media like Fox refuse to speak any truth regarding homosexuality, and its agenda against Biblical Christianity, for fear of being boycotted by advertisers.

Just more proof that:

1 Timothy 6:10 . . . the love of money is the root of all evil . . .

So there needs to be a conservative news source which is not dependent on advertisers.

Think of an "NPR2" supported by government funds, and staffed by conservatives, just as NPR is supported by government funds and staffed by leftists, who are continually trying to push the falsehoods of "political correctness".

SilverBear said in post #837:

All the evidence, yes all of it, says that sexual orientation is inborn.

Note that even if it were inborn, homosexuality is still a sin (Romans 1:26-27), just as even if the orientation of pedophilia were inborn, it is still a sin (Mark 9:42).

SilverBear said in post #837:

the bible also makes it far more clear that tattoos and shrimp scampi are not good.

That was Old Covenant/Old Testament, not New Covenant/New Testament.

On Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

SilverBear said in post #837:

[Re: Racism is against the Bible]

your opinion, not everyone shares it.

Then they reject the Bible's teachings, just as homosexuals do.

So racists and homosexuals have something in common.

SilverBear said in post #837:

[Re: Orientation is defined by behavior, which is a choice]

changing the definition to further your agenda is just dishonest.

The homosexuals' definition is invented out of whole cloth and specifically tailored to support their agenda against Biblical Christianity.

SilverBear said in post #837:

Again If you would like to pretend that orientation is a choice then please demonstrate how easy it is and change your orientation and go on living your life as a homosexual for...oh lets say ten years.

No Christian could do that without endangering his eternal soul. For he never knows when he is going to die, and if he dies in unrepentant sin he will go to hell (Hebrews 10:26-29).

 

[creslaw]

That was Old Covenant/Old Testament, not New Covenant/New Testament.
On Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

An excellent explanation of the Old & New Covenants ... I have saved it in my Bible study files.
Using examples from the OT Law to somehow justify homosexuality is such an unscriptural argument that I wonder it even comes up in "Christian Forums". Ephesians 4:14 is still with us today.

 

[SilverBear]

No, they don't. Not since Engel.

well i linked us to the SC ruling in Engler v Vitale. Please go ahead and show us all exactly where it says students are not allowed to ray in school

They cannot even have a voluntary, pre-planned prayer at the start of the class which is agreed to by all of the students.

Instead, the Supreme Court has illegally denied the "free exercise" of religion in the schools, which free exercise is supposed to be protected by the First Amendment.

So you don't want prayer in school you want it in class led by the teacher as an authority figure. That would be school sponsorship of a particular religion and indoctrination.

Note that that has never been proven.

just like it has never been proven that bacteria causes people to get sick.

Does saying its never been keep anyone from getting an infection? Of course not. Does going around saying that as part of an agenda to ban vaccines make the person saying it look smart and honest. No, it does not.

Also, we can't trust so-called "scientific" studies today which purport that homosexuality can be nothing but "nature" instead of "nurture", because all such studies start out with the presuppositions of "political correctness". If any study's results began to undermine these presuppositions, the study would be immediately abandoned as "flawed". Otherwise, the scientists involved would have their careers completely destroyed by their universities and the media.

For the universities and the media have been swallowed whole by "political correctness".

It's a black hole which lets no light (truth) escape.

"Political correctness" is the death of truth.

you go on and on about homosexuality being a sin but you have no issues tossing out false witness like it was confetti

Note that even if it were inborn, homosexuality is still a sin (Romans 1:26-27), just as even if the orientation of pedophilia were inborn, it is still a sin (Mark 9:42).

Pedophilia is not inborn.
Pedophilia is directly linked to lesions in the white matter in specific brain sections of the amygdala, Lesions that form postnatal. Further studies show that the greater the brain damage the younger the preferred victim of the pedophile

There is a mountains of research from around the world showing this but I'm sure you will reject the truth out of hand because the research doesn't show what you want.

That was Old Covenant/Old Testament, not New Covenant/New Testament.

ah....and because the false witness thing is in the OT is why you don't have any trouble with it.

Then they reject the Bible's teachings, just as homosexuals do.

So racists and homosexuals have something in common.

and there you go again.



[/quote] The homosexuals' definition is invented out of whole cloth and specifically tailored to support their agenda against Biblical Christianity.[/quote] and again

No Christian could do that without endangering his eternal soul. For he never knows when he is going to die, and if he dies in unrepentant sin he will go to hell (Hebrews 10:26-29).

But if you were doing it for the greater good God would know this and all woudl be forgiven. So go on and show us how easy it is and change your orientation and go on living your life as a happy homosexual.