Are your churches using Jesus Culture songs in praise and worship?

[PrettyboyAndy]

I've already answered your statements about 'I' used in therapy and or psychology. That is part of conversation and emphases of therapy. One needs to hear individual elements in therapy. That means that not all 'I' statements in therapy are meant to be egocentric, but are designed to get to the individual issues raised by the person in therapy. I know this situation from 34 years as a therapist. You seem to be confusing 2 issues: (1) The need for a person to give information about the self to a therapist, medical doctor, physiotherapist, etc, and (2) the egocentricity of many contemporary Christian songs of worship that are interested in how I am in worship, rather than exalting the Trinitarian Lord God Almighty.

The song you posted, 'I am yours', has some elements that are theocentric, but the mere title of the song demonstrates some egocentric emphases that are repeated through the song.

Do you really know what a red herring fallacy is and how you used it in your response to me? I'm not convinced you understand what you did.

Oz

Oz, if a song, or the song in particular "I am yours" is theocentric, does that make it contrary to the Gospel? Do you believe this song is Theocentric? How and why?

I am posting the song below for us to discuss: (Emphasis mine)

I am Yours
Here I am before You, falling in love and seeking Your truth
Knowing that Your perfect grace has brought me to this place
Because of You I freely live, my life to You, oh God, I give
So I stand before You, God
I lift my voice cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours

All the good You've done for me, I lift up my hands for all to see
You're the only one who brings me to my knees
To share this love across the earth, the beauty of Your holy worth
So I kneel before You, God
I lift my hands cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

Here I am, I stand, with arms wide open
To the One, the Son, the Everlasting God, the Everlasting God

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

This is another red herring. We cannot have a logical discussion when you


Andy,

Simply put: The phrase, 'for my power is made perfect in weakness' (2 Cor 12:9) is not synonymous with 'You [God] are strong in my brokenness' (Jesus Culture). The latter is false teaching; the former is biblical teaching.

Oz

Oz, I would like to discuss how/why:
"You God are strong in my brokenness" is contrary to Scripture.

Be mindful, I would be bringing up the following points:

a) If I said God is strong in my weakness, that does not limit God to being strong only in my weakness.

b) When I am in desperate need I fast and pray more so then I do when things are going great. At those points in my life I feel that am so much more closer with God and he reveals Himself more to me, or I have a more intimate relationship or understanding of Him. If I said I was in need and God was so good to me, he rescued me and he was strong in my weakness, There is nothing wrong with that and that's a true statement.

c) Stop trying to take less then 1 line from a song, and form an entire theological doctrine from it. What I mean by that is you ignore the entire point and message of the song, you take one line and come to the conclusion that the entire song is unbiblical because it says, You God are strong in my weakness.

d) But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:9-11 - That seems very scriptural to me.

e) Stop using scripture to attack people, that how satan temped Jesus.

 

[Bluelion]

That says absolutely NOTHING about the style of music. It says EVERYTHING about the content of words that are sung to the music. For example, The Gospel Coalition, was introduced to Brisbane in the Brisbane Town Hall in 2015. I attended the meeting and some of the grand old hymns (based on the words) of the faith were sung to contemporary music - guitars, keyboard, bass and drums. They were great songs because of the content of the words and the congregational, singable music.

You are barking up the wrong tree on this one with me.

Oz

You don't think that shows you like your christian music a certain way when you say you want traditional words or the word of God in your songs word for word. what would you call it then?

 

[OzSpen]

You don't think that shows you like your christian music a certain way when you say you want traditional words or the word of God in your songs word for word. what would you call it then?

The style does not matter if it fits with the genre of the culture in which it is performed. The words are of supreme importance.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The style does not matter if it fits with the genre of the culture in which it is performed. The words are of supreme importance.

Oz, Please respond to the two posts I just made, don't be selective and only answer what you can/want to.


Posts # 261 and 262

 

[Bluelion]

The style does not matter if it fits with the genre of the culture in which it is performed. The words are of supreme importance.

I did not say style I said you like your Christians music a certain way i.e. with the word of God in it. You said no you have not said anything like you like your music a certain way, i said you have you took issue. Now we are doing the weird dance where you say how you ,like your music a certain way and then say no that is not a preference. whatever dude i don't care any more but other than psalms you will be hard press to find any songs which have a word for word biblical words in them.

 

[mikedsjr]

a) Kids should learn to obey God law from their parents, pursuant to - Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22:6

Don't add more to the verse than it says. There are countless kids raised to obey God who ran from church when they were old.

b) You can not compare two things that are not alike. Jenn Johnson is nothing close to that nonsence you mentioned.

I compared Bethel Music to Hokie Pokie since you said as long as the song is not contradicting the Gospel.

c) You keep mentioning bad theology, The songs are not contrary to the Gospel, nor are they teaching anything heretical, Which is why I will defend them

I'm not sure you grasp the differences. Bad theology has nothing to do with the gospel necessarily. And your implying you don't care if bad theology is taught so long as it doesn't contradict the gospel.

d) Shame on you for saying a song that says I love you Lord Jesus, is cultic mantra, Jesus is the Judge, he knows who belongs to him, his sheep hear his voice and fellow him, it's our job to be Conformed to the image of Christ, Love God and Love our neighbor

Saying "Lord, I love you" over and over is a mantra. It's a mystical chant to cause the speakers of the chant to connect with a deity supernaturally. It's cultic. It's not in Scripture to do such. All you have done regarding the verses on singing is twist them. That's bad theology.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Don't add more to the verse than it says. There are countless kids raised to obey God who ran from church when they were old.

I compared Bethel Music to Hokie Pokie since you said as long as the song is not contradicting the Gospel.

I'm not sure you grasp the differences. Bad theology has nothing to do with the gospel necessarily. And your implying you don't care if bad theology is taught so long as it doesn't contradict the gospel.

Saying "Lord, I love you" over and over is a mantra. It's a mystical chant to cause the speakers of the chant to connect with a deity supernaturally. It's cultic. It's not in Scripture to do such. All you have done regarding the verses on singing is twist them. That's bad theology.

a) The Bible says train your kids up in the Lord, that's the responsibility of the parent to do so. The rest if up to God to open the heart. If they ran from church or not, it doesn't change the fact that Parents are to Raise the Children up in the Lord. Where should children hear about the Lord? - From the Word of God the Bible, from our parents/family, and from pastors, and maybe evangelists/missionaries. - I don't expect someone to come to faith through a song, i'm not saying it's not possible, but I don't believe that is not the primary means of salvation, the Bible, Parent/Family, Pastor/Church, are primary means

b) You can not compare Hokey Pokey to Christian song, it's like comparing a non believer to a believer.

c) There is a BIG difference between Contrary to the Gospel and Secondary issues. I'm okay with ignoring/avoiding secondary issues but will not accept heresey
i) Secondary issue would be: Spiritual Gifts, Arminianism vs Calvinism
ii) Contrary to the Gospel is Denying the trinity, denying Jesus is God, Denying death, burial and resurrection of Christ, adding anything to Faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.

d)I listen to children worship music, it's very, very repetitive and yet it's still a worship song, praising God.

 

[Bluelion]

Don't add more to the verse than it says. There are countless kids raised to obey God who ran from church when they were old.

I compared Bethel Music to Hokie Pokie since you said as long as the song is not contradicting the Gospel.

I'm not sure you grasp the differences. Bad theology has nothing to do with the gospel necessarily. And your implying you don't care if bad theology is taught so long as it doesn't contradict the gospel.

Saying "Lord, I love you" over and over is a mantra. It's a mystical chant to cause the speakers of the chant to connect with a deity supernaturally. It's cultic. It's not in Scripture to do such. All you have done regarding the verses on singing is twist them. That's bad theology.

Is the spirit supernatural? I think it is and God tells us to worship Him in Spirit. Just shows you have no idea what you're talking about. God also says meditate on my words day and night, picking a passage and repeating it is not a cultist magical ritual, it is, what God tells us to do. Christians are so judgmental, God tell us to us His judgement not our own but those who go by christian today repeatedly judge on their own standard. I got news for you your standard is not God's.

 

[OzSpen]

I did not say style I said you like your Christians music a certain way i.e. with the word of God in it. You said no you have not said anything like you like your music a certain way, i said you have you took issue. Now we are doing the weird dance where you say how you ,like your music a certain way and then say no that is not a preference. whatever dude i don't care any more but other than psalms you will be hard press to find any songs which have a word for word biblical words in them.

I have not told you what 'way' of music I prefer. I've given examples of the style not mattering, but the theocentric, christocentric lyrics DO matter.

When you misrepresent what I said, as you are doing here, you are committing a straw man fallacy. Please quit engaging in this erroneous reasoning. I will not respond if you misrepresent my posts like this again.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, Please respond to the two posts I just made, don't be selective and only answer what you can/want to.


Posts # 261 and 262

I will not reply to that which I've previously answered and I will not engage in discussions with you where you have used logical fallacies (as in the 2 posts you mentioned). Logical discussion is impossible when you use fallacious reasoning.

So I will not pursue further discussion since you have distorted what I have stated with these logical fallacies and misrepresentations.

Oz

 

[Bluelion]

I have not told you what 'way' of music I prefer. I've given examples of the style not mattering, but the theocentric, christocentric lyrics DO matter.

When you misrepresent what I said, as you are doing here, you are committing a straw man fallacy. Please quit engaging in this erroneous reasoning. I will not respond if you misrepresent my posts like this again.

Oz

Again I am not committing a logical fallacy. I did not take the extreme positions and then argue it as if you said it when you did not. Fact, you said you like the word of God in your christian music that is not a strawman. It would seem your only argument is straw man fallacies, when some one does not use fallacy you do not know how to respond. You need to look at your self brother, i am not sure what this dance is but you have some issue you do not want to be free of. You make statements but do not acknowledged others points they have made. Your cup is full as the chinese would say, you can not learn anything new because you have no room for it.

 

[mikedsjr]

Is the spirit supernatural? I think it is and God tells us to worship Him in Spirit. Just shows you have no idea what you're talking about. God also says meditate on my words day and night, picking a passage and repeating it is not a cultist magical ritual, it is, what God tells us to do. Christians are so judgmental, God tell us to us His judgement not our own but those who go by christian today repeatedly judge on their own standard. I got news for you your standard is not God's.

Name once where I opposed meditating on God's word in musical form. I would welcome that. But repeating "Lord,I love you" is not repeating a passage. It says nothing. Nothing. It says nothing about whether a person in the audience is Mormon, JW, Oneness, Deist, Or even a Jew.

Other than that, you can think anything you want about me.

 

[Bluelion]

Name once where I opposed meditating on God's word in musical form. I would welcome that. But repeating "Lord,I love you" is not repeating a passage. It says nothing. Nothing. It says nothing about whether a person in the audience is Mormon, JW, Oneness, Deist, Or even a Jew.

Other than that, you can think anything you want about me.

Show me where I said you said not to meditate? In fact repenting God i love you can be a meditations. It doesn't need to put on a label on things God does not there is only God's children, satan's children and those coming to God. That is about it for labels.

I think you do care what I think or you would not keep saying i don't care what you think about me. Seems you have a problem because God said if you go to make your offering before the Lord and remember your brother has something against you, leave your offering at the alter go settle it then come make your offering.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Name once where I opposed meditating on God's word in musical form. I would welcome that. But repeating "Lord,I love you" is not repeating a passage. It says nothing. Nothing. It says nothing about whether a person in the audience is Mormon, JW, Oneness, Deist, Or even a Jew.

Other than that, you can think anything you want about me.

Ignore me when you can't answer me, great tactic.

a) The Bible says train your kids up in the Lord, that's the responsibility of the parent to do so. The rest if up to God to open the heart. If they ran from church or not, it doesn't change the fact that Parents are to Raise the Children up in the Lord. Where should children hear about the Lord? - From the Word of God the Bible, from our parents/family, and from pastors, and maybe evangelists/missionaries. - I don't expect someone to come to faith through a song, i'm not saying it's not possible, but I don't believe that is not the primary means of salvation, the Bible, Parent/Family, Pastor/Church, are primary means

b) You can not compare Hokey Pokey to Christian song, it's like comparing a non believer to a believer.

c) There is a BIG difference between Contrary to the Gospel and Secondary issues. I'm okay with ignoring/avoiding secondary issues but will not accept heresey
i) Secondary issue would be: Spiritual Gifts, Arminianism vs Calvinism
ii) Contrary to the Gospel is Denying the trinity, denying Jesus is God, Denying death, burial and resurrection of Christ, adding anything to Faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.

d)I listen to children worship music, it's very, very repetitive and yet it's still a worship song, praising God.

 

[Bluelion]

No one ever did answer if they find amazing grace acceptable. lol

 

[mikedsjr]

Ignore me when you can't answer me, great tactic.

a) The Bible says train your kids up in the Lord, that's the responsibility of the parent to do so. The rest if up to God to open the heart. If they ran from church or not, it doesn't change the fact that Parents are to Raise the Children up in the Lord. Where should children hear about the Lord? - From the Word of God the Bible, from our parents/family, and from pastors, and maybe evangelists/missionaries. - I don't expect someone to come to faith through a song, i'm not saying it's not possible, but I don't believe that is not the primary means of salvation, the Bible, Parent/Family, Pastor/Church, are primary means

b) You can not compare Hokey Pokey to Christian song, it's like comparing a non believer to a believer.

c) There is a BIG difference between Contrary to the Gospel and Secondary issues. I'm okay with ignoring/avoiding secondary issues but will not accept heresey
i) Secondary issue would be: Spiritual Gifts, Arminianism vs Calvinism
ii) Contrary to the Gospel is Denying the trinity, denying Jesus is God, Denying death, burial and resurrection of Christ, adding anything to Faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.

d)I listen to children worship music, it's very, very repetitive and yet it's still a worship song, praising God.

I'm not sure what I ignored. I have less and less time to devote to this forum. My apologies if you think i was trying to avoid your statements.

a) so are you saying there is no need to bring kids to church, except to teach the action of attending church? Realize that laws of God point us to our sins.

b) you said a song has to not go against the gospel. It doesn't. And a church has used it.

c) I appreciate your ii) point. I don't believe a song has to be completely about the gospel to be good Christian music for church. I do believe it should make theological sense. It should Scriptural. But it should be surrounded by gospel filled songs.

d)so what age are you referring to? I thought you said the parents are to teach kids. Not church.

 

[mikedsjr]

No one ever did answer if they find amazing grace acceptable. lol

Why would it not?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I'm not sure what I ignored. I have less and less time to devote to this forum. My apologies if you think i was trying to avoid your statements.

a) so are you saying there is no need to bring kids to church, except to teach the action of attending church? Realize that laws of God point us to our sins.

b) you said a song has to not go against the gospel. It doesn't. And a church has used it.

c) I appreciate your ii) point. I don't believe a song has to be completely about the gospel to be good Christian music for church. I do believe it should make theological sense. It should Scriptural. But it should be surrounded by gospel filled songs.

d)so what age are you referring to? I thought you said the parents are to teach kids. Not church.

I understand I have time constraints also just have lot of down time at work to go on the forums.

a) The Bible says don't forsake the gathering, so I am not saying church isn't needed. What I am saying is:
- The Bible says Faith comes from hearing the Word of God
- The Bible says train your kids up in the Lord
Therefore Salvation comes from hearing the Word of God, primarily. What I am saying is I don't expect a song to save someone, I am not saying it can't, But I believe Faith comes from hearing the Word of God.

b) I don't care to chat about the Hokey Pokey, that's nonsense, i won't waste my time on it any further. It isn't a Christian song, nor is it about God.

c) Yes I agree 100% Song has to be Theological and Scriptural

d) I was saying I myself, 31 years old, sometimes listen to kids Worship music, its very repetitive but it's still biblical. You previously said repetitive worship music was like cultist chant. I beg to differ and say it is not.

 

[Bluelion]

Why would it not?

well its not a word for word it contains no scripture that i can think of off hand.