Are you good enough to will your salvation

Is God really Soveriegn in everything?

  • No, I am good enough to realize that Christ is a good idea

  • Yes, I am a sinner and only God can save me through His own good will

  • I have no idea


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Received

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Your latter claim is a red herring. Our goodness is irrelevant; nowhere has this argument been presented on non-calvinist ground. We are not saved according to works, but by belief (Romans 4:4,5). Our capacity has nothing to do with our righteousness, for righteousness in the context of God's perspective is according to faith (Hab. 2:4). However, to say that our righeousness has no basis in reference to our salvation does not mean that our ability to comprehend the message does not. There are varying degrees of depravity, as any man can well comprehend.

Furthermore, Jesus states in John 3:21 that those who practice the truth come to the light; they are not already in it. The light is not the truth, for Jesus clearly presents a dichotomy between the two in the same verse. Therefore, there is something within man that makes him capable of responding to the gospel in his own power, though without the grace of God this ability would be a naught.

Moreso, I find in scripture men resisting the holy spirit (Acts 7:51). I also beleive in a universal call to repent. An ought implies a can. For God to condemn men for doing something they cannot do in their own power is ludicrous.
 
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Gamecock

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Ben johnson said:
The poll itself is slanted. Would you be offended, GC, if I added ANOTHER CHOICE? (IOW, the following option would appear above in the POLL)

 Salvation is offered to ALL MEN, Jesus draws ALL MEN to the point each can make a responsible decision...
If you can fix the second option: change no to yes, have at it....
 
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drstevej

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Ben johnson said:
The poll itself is slanted. Would you be offended, GC, if I added ANOTHER CHOICE? (IOW, the following option would appear above in the POLL)

 Salvation is offered to ALL MEN, Jesus draws ALL MEN to the point each can make a responsible decision...
Your third choice is a variant on number 1 -- in the end you are the deciding influence - you do what God can't do -- allow yourself to be saved.

God's lucky some let Him save them, otherwise Heaven would be lonely....
 
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drstevej

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armothe said:
The poll is indeed slanted.

Gamecock, your continuance of unsubstantiated posts for the mere pleasure of taunting those who do not agree with you is both dispicable and considered flooding the forum.

-A
Hogwash, you're too sensitive.
 
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Ben johnson

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f you can fix the second option: change no to yes, have at it....
For a FAIR poll, you really need the OTHER OPTION; that our turning to Him is NOT of our "own goodness", but of a universal call towards salvation (which overcomes depravity sufficiently to allow free choice).

I would be happy to add that option...
 
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Ben johnson

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Your third choice is a variant on number 1 -- in the end you are the deciding influence - you do what God can't do -- allow yourself to be saved.
No, option #1 is MAN-CENTERED, leaning towards PELAGIANISM; the third option would recognize that a Sovereign God can choose to allow mankind free will in returning His love, or rejecting Him.
(Incidentally, it occurs to me that the NATURE of love MUST be to allow the OBJECT of that love, its FREEDOM to stay OR leave. Love never demands its own way, love only asks for return.)
Hogwash, you're too sensitive.
Does that come in QUARTS, or 55-gallon-drum?
;)
 
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drstevej

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Ben johnson said:
... the third option would recognize that a Sovereign God can choose to allow mankind free will in returning His love, or rejecting Him.
God abidcates the throne to man voluntarily. Just the same, man is king.


Ben johnson said:
(Incidentally, it occurs to me that the NATURE of love MUST be to allow the OBJECT of that love, its FREEDOM to stay OR leave.;)
Is there free will in heaven?

If there is love there, your reasoning demands free will to bail out of heaven!

Free Will In Heaven
{Apologies to Eric Clapton}

Beyond the door,
There's peace I'm sure,
And I know there's got to be
Free will in heaven.

Would you throw a fit
If He controlled you in heaven?
Would it be the same
If He bound your will in heaven?

You must be strong
And carry on,
'Cause you know there's no free will
Here in heaven.
 
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Received

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God abidcates the throne to man voluntarily. Just the same, man is king.

How is man the king when the contingency for grace comes only with God? How is man the king when the rejection of a gift is not tantmount to nullifying its value? How is man the king when if he refuses the gift, he is the worse man off?

Is there free will in heaven?

If there is love there, your reasoning demands free will to bail out of heaven!

Unless sin is as scripture points it to be -- a disease that is many times contrary to the desires of the man in question (Paul makes this clear in the latter half of Romans 7).

Scripture declares to us that we are slaves to sin; but if sin is strictly the wrong choice upon every pair of choices given, this means that we are slaves to the decisions we have made -- which I find hardly appeasing, especially considering the fact that Jesus came to save men from sin and not punishment (Matthew 1:21), and that men are born not in the faith that would otherwise render unto them the righteousness needed to be guiltless in the face of the law, for faith comes only through special revelation; not general (Romans 10:14,15).

Free Will In Heaven
{Apologies to Eric Clapton}

I think I've found it, brothers; the reason why we differ on calvinism and non-calvinism is because calvinists attack Eric Clapton. :)
(Takes his guitar and runs...)
 
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drstevej

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Received said:
How is man the king when the contingency for grace comes only with God? How is man the king when the rejection of a gift is not tantmount to nullifying its value? How is man the king when if he refuses the gift, he is the worse man off?



Simple, man is king if he casts the deciding vote -- a vote that God refuses to decisively influence. King Jesus abdicates to King John Doe.


Your second and third questions are non sequiturs. :rolleyes:

Received said:
Unless sin is as scripture points it to be -- a disease that is many times contrary to the desires of the man in question (Paul makes this clear in the latter half of Romans 7).



Scripture declares to us that we are slaves to sin; but if sin is strictly the wrong choice upon every pair of choices given, this means that we are slaves to the decisions we have made -- which I find hardly appeasing, especially considering the fact that Jesus came to save men from sin and not punishment (Matthew 1:21), and that men are born not in the faith that would otherwise render unto them the righteousness needed to be guiltless in the face of the law, for faith comes only through special revelation; not general (Romans 10:14,15).
How is this responsive to my question whether there is free will in Heaven?


Why do you conclude that the latter part of Romans 7 refers to an unsaved person?

Why do you conclude that Jesus came "to save men from sin and not punishment"? He came to save from both sin AND punishment.

I think all those Clapton concerts have scrambled your logic faculties. :scratch:

 
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Received

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Simple, man is king if he casts the deciding vote -- a vote that God refuses to decisively influence. King Jesus abdicates to King John Doe.
Disagree to the superlative. Consider the essence of God, and realize that love is never coercive. Hey, I'll put it in nicer words for you:

"The ability of a person to receive God's gracious gift of salvation is not the same as working for it. To think so is to give credit for the gift to the receiver rather than to the Giver who graciously gave it." (Geisler)

Your second and third questions are non sequiturs. :rolleyes:
That's probably because the fault lies with you, dear Brutus.

How is this responsive to my question whether there is free will in Heaven?
Easy; I said that sin was a subjective disease that finds its death with the absence of flesh, and I would add that man's fall from grace enabled him the ability to value the good. This means that once we realize our wrong come the judgment of Christ -- the entirety of its imperfection -- there is no possible way -- if indeed we are of the faith -- that we could ever desire such things again.

Why do you conclude that the latter part of Romans 7 refers to an unsaved person?
I never said the relevance of the issue had to do with the soteriological realm. I only pointed out that sin is very much a power that works contrary to our desires. The chance that it was a saved person by far has more emphasis than if it was not, for it reveals that even the most godly of Christians can struggle with a disease contrary to his will. Of course, I do not believe this is referring to a saved person as it is.

Why do you conclude that Jesus came "to save men from sin and not punishment"? He came to save from both sin AND punishment.

The sin is the punishment. The death of a man's spirit from God's causes psychological death (that is, of the soul -- not our post-modern interpretations of the word). This is clearly what the verse indicates. Indeed, if we are slaves to sin, our salvation comes first from this slavery, and not some shady eschatological punishment that has no empirical proof in the face of the considering salvation. I find it quite paradoxical that we can run about the world and declare through a gospel of fear that men are condemned to an everlasting hell we can by no means prove, and yet come to the revelation that many have not: that sin is indeed the full punishment of the ******.

"The notion that the salvation of Jesus is a salvation from the consequences of our sins, is a false, mean, low notion. The salvtion of Christ is salvation from the smallest tendency or leaning to sin. It is a deliverance into the pure air of God's ways of thinking and feeling. It is a salvation that makes the heart pure, with the will and choice of the heart to be pure. To such a heart, sin is disgugsting. It sees a thing as it is, -- that is, as God sees it, for God sees everything as it is. The soul thus saved would rather sink into the flames of hell than steal into heaven and skulk there under the shadow of an imputed righteousness. No soul is saved that would not prefer hell to sin." -- George MacDonald

Have you ever read The Great Divorce?

I think all those Clapton concerts have scrambled your logic faculties. :scratch:

Oh hush; you're just jealous cuz you can't jam like me and Clapton (take this example, my friend -- a clear reference to litotes: the lost art of literary speech).

Blessings.
 
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Ben johnson

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what is that avatar you have by your name? Is it Edward Scizzorhands in the rain by a street light at night?
If I am not mistaken, that is Andy Dufresne, tasting freedom for the first time in more than 20 years --- in the movie, "Shawshank Redemption". Wrongly charged and given "life imprisonment", Andy dug a tunnel from his cell to access a sewer pipe, and crawled through the pipe to freedom during a thunderstorm. This picture is Andy just after emerging from the pipe, receiving a welcome shower after crawling through more than 300 feet of, well, of stuff that inhabits sewer pipes.

Excellent movie...
Simple, man is king if he casts the deciding vote -- a vote that God refuses to decisively influence. King Jesus abdicates to King John Doe.
Please read Hebrews 12:14-15, and tell me if it does not plainly say that God's GRACE can be FAILED by mere men...

"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the lord. See to it that none FAIL the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many are defiled..."
 
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Received

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Ben, I love you brother. Not only are you dashingly handsome, with a theology that fits, but you enjoy one of the greatest movies of all time.

Stuff that inhabits sewer pipes is right! lol

I've always been enthralled by Andy Dufresne; never have I witnessed a character -- perhaps on both the screen and on the page -- that resembles myself more than he.

Yes, yes:

"Andy Dufresne -- who crawled through a river and came out clean on the other side; Andy Dufresne -- headed for the pacific."
 
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frumanchu

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ben johnson said:
Wrongly charged and given "life imprisonment", Andy dug a tunnel from his cell to access a sewer pipe, and crawled through the pipe to freedom during a thunderstorm.
Received said:
never have I witnessed a character -- perhaps on both the screen and on the page -- that resembles myself more than he.
Given the logical conclusions of your theology and your view of original sin, I cannot help but point out how truly fitting your affinity for Andy Dufresne is.

Wrongly accused of a sin you didn't commit, you dug yourself a tunnel and crawled through the feces to save yourself.

BTW, all the narration by Morgan Freeman for that movie was done at a recording studio in my old home town by friends of my family. :)
 
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