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Are you dead to the Law?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by AubreyM, Apr 12, 2021.

  1. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello you and welcome.

    According to Romans 7:4So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;

    Paul explains to the Romans and us today. That you brothers (believers - who are trusting in God and the Lord Jesus Christ)

    You also were made dead to the law

    Through the body of the Christ (Messiah) -> For you are becoming another's (Now being dead to the law -> moving into the body of Christ -> who out of the dead was raised up -> by the spirit given through the Lord Jesus Christ that is received from the Father, that we as believers may bear fruit.


    Dead/The put to death -> 2289. thanatoó Usage: I put to death, subdue; pass: I am in danger of death, am dead to, am rid of, am parted from.

    Law ->3551 nómoslaw. 3551 (nómos) is used of: a) the Law (Scripture), with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or b) any system of religious thinking (theology), especially when nomos occurs without the Greek definite article.​

    Were you also to made dead to the law being made alive by God through Christ Jesus becoming part of the body of believers?

    What is our identity is it of the flesh?

    Is it in Lord Christ Jesus by the Spirit through Faith with God and trusting in them ( A new creation in Christ)?

    What do you think about these things?

    Do you believe these things?
     
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  2. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Sin is the transgression of the law and the wages of sin is death. Death is the curse of the law and Yeshua became a curse for us. Being dead to the law is that we are no longer under its curse when we sin.
     
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  3. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello HaDerekh,

    The Law does bring forth the recognition of our sins, being dead to it means we no longer look towards it. Being dead to the law. As believers we are brought back to life, by God through the holy spirit/spirit of Christ with in us.

    Being dead to sin, is the same way, as believers to cut it off from us and it no longer has an effect in our life, though we still live in this fleshly body - Believers will operate by something better than the flesh - which is the spirit.

    Galatians 2:
    19 for I through law, did die, that to God I may live;

    20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;

    21 I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness [be] through law -- then Christ died in vain.​

    Thank you for adding your comments.
     
  4. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    The "law" in question of Romans 7:4 refers to the OT law of Moses. All are dead to that OT law by the body of Christ for in Christ's death He took that OT law out of the way, Ephesians 2:12-16. Men today are under Christ's NT law, as was Paul, 1 Corinthians 9:21.
     
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  5. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    What He took out of the way was the CURSE of the law...death. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death.
     
  6. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello HaDerekh,

    What does wages of sin is death mean to you?

    Does this mean physical death, or spiritual death, or both?
     
  7. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello butterball1,

    Thank you for mentioned, what the 'law' was in question. You are right it does refer to the Old Testament Law of Moses. All believers would be dead to that OT law, by the body of Christ.

    Some may still look towards living towards the Old Testament Law, or Traditions of even men, that might still be a burden on some people who are believers, or are new Christians.

    Believers according to Paul are suppose to see themselves as dead to that Old Law made of Stone, and to reborn again by the spirit, and realize that they are made alive in Christ by God through faith, being justified and have peace with God now.

    They have been made alive from their once spiritual deadness, of having to try to fix themselves in their flesh. They now move onward from looking at the flesh, and start looking towards the Spirit and operating by it instead by faith and trust in God, because it has been promised to be given to you.

    That if those who are believers -> Are now dead to the law, they are also dead to sin, it is not longer (our flesh) that lives, but Christ Jesus who lives with-in us, by and through faith and trust in Him and His Father.

    Learning to walk together in a relationship by faith, and to Love God, and in turn believers will love others.

    Thank you again for your comment.
     
  8. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Things in the material world have effects in the spiritual and vice versa. There is a physical birth and a physical death...as there is a spiritual birth as well as spiritual death. All have the first 2...
     
  9. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    If you sin (sin is the transgression of the law), do you love God? If you steal, do you love your neighbor? Faith, without works is dead faith.
     
  10. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Okay, HaDerekH, thank you for sharing with us a bit more of your perspective.
     
  11. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    By taking away the OT law, Christ took the curse of it away also.
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other that the Law of God, such as contrasting a law of works with a law of faith (Romans 3:27) and contrasting the Law of God with the law of sin (Romans 7:25), so it is important to correctly identify which law he was speaking about so that we don't die to the wrong law. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so it would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:4-6 as Paul speaking against obeying God, as speaking against obeying a law that he delighted in obeying, as saying saying that we need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for him in order to be free to bear fruit for Him, as saying that the way to become unified with Christ is by refusing to follow the law that he spent his ministry teaching how to follow by word and by example, as saying that he delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, or as saying that he delighted in being held captive. At no point was the woman in Romans 7:1-3 set free from obeying any of God's laws, so there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that in the same way we have been set free from obeying all of God's laws. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Law of God is part of the content of eternal life in Christ, so again it is absurd to think that eternal life in Christ involves dying to the Law of God and presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin.
     
  13. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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    Matthew 5:18
     
  14. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello Soyeong

    Would agree that as believers -> By no means do we continue in sin, so grace may abound.

    Believer who are seeking truth in the Lord Jesus Christ, and God and growing in knowledge of Gods will, and spiritual understanding, and wisdom will show their love for God -> And God will write on their hearts and minds by the spirit of what is right and wrong without ever having to look at the law -> Spiritually they will already know the inclinations of what is wrong, especially if they are using the word of God and listening to what Jesus Christ is teaching about many times things that have to do with the heart.

    So many times was there many people with hard hearts, but God makes us alive again by the spiritual life (living in the spirit) - from spiritual deadness (living in our flesh) and renews our hearts and minds by and through the spirit.

    Thank you for your comment.
     
  15. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    Hello Haderekh

    You must be someone that has not see as all the law as being fulfilled, can respect your viewpoint if that is part of your belief.
     
  16. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

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    Christ ended the OT law by fulfilling it.

    From that verse, if the OT law has not been fulfilled, then every jot and tittle of the OT law is still in effect today, including but limited to animal sacrifices, purifications, pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc, etc.
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    Yes, I would agree that we are by no means to continue to sin that grace may about and everything else in Romans 6 is in favor of obedience to God's law and against the law of sin, so the whole of Romans 6 is incompatible with interpreting Romans 7:4 as referring to God's law, especially because sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). Likewise, there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our love for God without obedience to His command. Whenever we testify about God's nature we are expressing our love for who He is. The New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts so that we will obey it, not so that we will have justification for not obeying it, so Romans 7:4 should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying God's law.

    God's nature is truth, God's law is truth because it is God's instructions for how to testify about His nature (Psalms 119:142), and Jesus is the truth because he is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to God's law, so there is no such thing as seeking truth in the Lord Jesus Christ apart from follow his example of obedience to God's law. God has straightforwardly made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8), so again there is no such thing as seeking knowledge of God's will apart from His instructions for how to do His will. Someone having a heard heart is always associated with their refusal to submit to God's will.

    In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God, so there is nothing about following the Spirit that involves not having to look at the law. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to His law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Christ specifically said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to do the same, so fulfilling the law should be interpreted as abolishing any part of it. Jesus did fulfill the law by teaching how to correctly obey it by word and by example, which has nothing to do with causing it to no longer be in effect. Whenever you stop at a stoplight, you are fulfilling that traffic law by correctly obeying it, but that has nothing to do with causing it to no longer be in effect.
     
  19. AubreyM

    AubreyM Active Member

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    hello, Soy

    So this is your viewpoint on how you see the scriptures, thank you for sharing them.

    My only question is then what is Paul talking about being dead to in Romans 7:4 if it is not talking about being dead to the law of Moses.

    It states how how we are dead to the law being brought into the resurrection of Christ that brings forth fruit.

    The law of Moses is there to read if anyone desires to go and read it. It will very difficult it a person has turned their life around towards looking to God and the Lord Jesus Christ to go on sinning, the law of Moses is to remind us how sinful we are, and how we need the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Paul is saying we are dead to the law, being brought into oneness with Christ Jesus being buried in baptism of his death with him, and being risen again by the spirit that is with-in us as believers.

    So this is not saying be dead to the law, go on sinning, but instead be alive with Christ in you, for you are going to bring forth fruit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  20. Dkh587

    Dkh587 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Christ said he didn’t come to take away the Law of God. I think you may be confused.
     
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