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Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Yahwah called them (His) because that is what the people called them.


    Isaiah 1

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
    what are they to me?”
    says the Lord.
    “I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
    of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
    I have no pleasure
    in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
    12 When you come to appear before me,
    who has asked this of you,…
     
  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Numbers 10:10
    Also at your times of rejoicing—your appointed festivals and New Moon feasts—you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the LORD your God.”

    Numbers 29:39
    “‘In addition to what you vow and your freewill offerings, offer these to the LORD at your appointed festivals: your burnt offerings, grain offerings, drink offerings and fellowship offerings.’”

    Isaiah 1:14
    Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

    Hosea 9:5
    What will you do on the day of your appointed festivals, on the feast days of the LORD?

    Hosea 12:9
    “I have been the LORD your God ever since you came out of Egypt; I will make you live in tents again, as in the days of your appointed festivals.

    Zephaniah 3:18
    “I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals, which is a burden and reproach for you.
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Notice how God never declares these as His but as theirs, and not because they were on the wrong day, but because they were kept wrong, in spirit and in truth.
     
  4. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    There are a few places where He called them "His," but that is because that is what the people called them.


    Sacrifices were good will gestures for fellowship offerings to the Lord; even before they were made a law.

    Genesis 4

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”



    Genesis 8

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it.



    Exodus 13

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    14 “In days to come, when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ say to him, ‘With a mighty hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the Lord killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the Lord (before it became law) the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’
     
  5. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Festivals, sacrifices, and offerings were the customs of the people, they were not a requirement from Yahwah.
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    It was too long ago. I can't remember, but they were in Georgia or Alabama.

    None of these verses address animal sacrifices AFTER death is destroyed.
     
  7. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    How do you figure that, since without God requiring them, they would not exist.
     
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Don't let this guy confuse you. I just covered this.

    (CLV) Lv 23:1
    Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying:

    (CLV) Lv 23:2
    Speak to the sons of Israel, and you will say to them, The appointed seasons of Yahweh, those which you shall proclaim holy meetings, My appointed seasons, they are these:
     
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense.

    YHWH doesn't lie.

    I specifically referred to Yahweh's Moedim and you retort with a verse about sacrifices?

    Is a red herring the best counterargument you have against YHWH's clear commands?

     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    My Festivals

    New International Version (NIV)


    Exodus 23:18
    “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast. “The fat of my festival offerings must not be kept until morning.

    Leviticus 23:2
    “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed festivals, the appointed festivals of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.

    Leviticus 23:4
    The Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread “‘These are the LORD’s appointed festivals, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times:

    2 Chronicles 2:4
    Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the Sabbaths, at the New Moons and at the appointed festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.

    Ezekiel 44:24
    “‘In any dispute, the priests are to serve as judges and decide it according to my ordinances. They are to keep my laws and my decrees for all my appointed festivals, and they are to keep my Sabbaths holy.

    The rest of the time He calls them "your." The people established those things, not Yahwah. They were the customs of the people before they were made law. Yahwah did command a Seventh Day Sabbath in the beginning.
     
  11. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Sacrifices were good will gestures for fellowship offerings to the Lord, long before they were made a law.

    Genesis 4

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

    6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”



    Genesis 8

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it.



    Exodus 13

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    14 “In days to come, when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ say to him, ‘With a mighty hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the Lord killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the Lord the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.’

    Isaiah 1

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
    what are they to me?”
    says the Lord.
    “I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
    of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
    I have no pleasure
    in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
    12 When you come to appear before me,
    who has asked this of you,…
     
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I see that I am repeating myself. You need to pay closer attention.
     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    The Moedim are YHWH's appointed times with his people.

    When a doctor sets an appointment with with you, to meet with him; is it your appointment, or his appointment?

    Have you ever heard of a false dichotomy?


    I'd like to just go ahead and just take your word for that; but I think that it would be much wiser to wait and see you present YHWH's word on that. Eternal consequences are still eternal. I anxiously await your proof.

    I've been thinking about saying the same to you. I decided instead to continue patiently working on new ways to lead you to comprehension.
     
  14. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I am done speaking with you. Have a nice day!
     
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    God required them from the beginning after sin... Cain and Able were judged according to their obedience.
     
  16. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Not correct. They were customs created by man as good will gestures. God has no need for such things. Please read carefully the following verses.

    Isaiah 1
    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    11 “The multitude of your sacrifices—
    what are they to me?”
    says the Lord.
    “I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
    of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
    I have no pleasure
    in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
    12 When you come to appear before me,
    who has asked this of you,…



    Jeremiah 7
    21 This is what the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: “Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices, and eat the meat yourselves, 22 for when I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak with them or command them concerning burnt offering and sacrifice. 23 However, I did give them this command: Obey Me, and then I will be your God, and you will be My people. You must follow every way I command you so that it may go well with you. 24 Yet they didn’t listen or pay attention but followed their own advice and according to their own stubborn, evil heart. They went backward and not forward. 25 Since the day your ancestors came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent all My servants the prophets to you time and time again. 26 However, they wouldn’t listen to Me or pay attention, but became obstinate; they did more evil than their ancestors.


    God only instructed Moses on how they were to be preformed.
     
  17. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    That is because the congregation got away from
    discipling and started teaching.
     
  18. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    That is not a parable, but a simple fact.
    Yahweh will destroy the wicked in the lake of fire,
    body and soul.
     
  19. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I checked on the original text and it reads (Gehenna) in Matthew 10:28.

    Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.

    According to Archaeologist, there is no evidence to support that Gehenna was a place for burning garbage. There were however lots of Potsherds found.


    Jeremiah 19:2
    and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,


    Jeremiah 19:11
    and say to them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will smash this nation and this city just as this potter’s jar is smashed and cannot be repaired. They will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
     
  20. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Words can have more than one meaning. A bat can be a stick you hit a ball with or a flying mammal. Gehinnom, in addition to being a garbage dump, is also a place of temporary punishment for sin.

    Jews pray for the relief of the soul while in Gehinnom (one year). Judaism has no concept of an eternal hell. This idea came with Christianity. In Judaism, the soul that is so bad that it couldn't be salvaged is annihilated. Or at least that it is how it is with most scholars -- you know how it is; two Jews, three opinions.

    Jewish Views of the Afterlife: What Is Gehenna?

    Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
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