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Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    The law includes all the promises made and established in covenant with Abraham. Which was 430 years before the Sinai law was given.
    Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
     
  2. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    It is against the rules for me to say here, so I will send you a PM.
     
  3. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

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    And the promises given Abraham were not dependent on the Torah.

    Rom 4
    13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

    15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring–not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

    Did you catch that? IF adhering to the law was related to becoming an heir in any way it would make the promise null and void. So Paul is teaching here that becoming an heir depends NOT on observance to Torah but on faith. To me this implies that Jews, even though we observe the Torah commands will not become heirs simply because of this observance. As well as Gentiles, who even though they observe the Torah out of love for the God of Israel because of their faith, will not because of their devotion to the written law further assure or establish their position as heirs. Paul seems to openly state that observance is not linked to being an heir.

    Romans 3 (CJB)
    20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.

    21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well -
    22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
    23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God's praise.

    24 By God's grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua.​
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    My post was for HARK!, not you.
     
  5. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    How certain are you that this is what God wants?


    1. Reinstate Levitical priesthood.

    2. Restart sin sacrifices.

    3. Mediate between God and the Gentiles as a middle wall partition.

    4. Have Christians for servants for all the wrongs they have done.

    5. Receive tribute from Gentiles.

    6. Re-establish the Festivals.
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Who are you asking?
     
  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I am asking everyone.
     
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Are you not aware that your body is a temple of the Ruach HaKodesh in you, which you have from YHWH?
     
  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Yes, I am aware of that. I am also aware that I am to be a living sacrifice and that Yeshua is my sacrifice for sin. So, by your question, I assume you believe the sacrifices remain, but not in a literal sense by the shedding of animal blood. Correct?

    Can you now answer my last two questions? Will believers be offering sin sacrifices when there is a future temple built? Also, do you believe the sacrifices will continue beyond the Millennium?
     
  10. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    1. Reinstate Levitical priesthood. If Ezekiel's temple will be built in the future, then the sons of Zadok (Levites) will be ministering in it before YHWH according to His will.

    2. Restart sin sacrifices. If Ezekiel's temple will be built in the future, then there will be sin sacrifices offered according to YHWH's will.

    3. Mediate between God and the Gentiles as a middle wall partition. There is no longer a middle wall.

    4. Have Christians for servants for all the wrongs they have done. ???

    5. Receive tribute from Gentiles. ???

    6. Re-establish the Festivals. There will be no need to "re-establish" the Festivals. They have not ended, therefore they need not start again.
     
  11. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Absolutely not dependent upon Sinai Torah.
    De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
    De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
    De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    And it is the fulfillment of promises made to our father Abraham made in Christ....that is the end (goal) of the Torah. It establishes God's righteousness, not ours.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 14. KJV
    14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

    2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
     
  13. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Obadiah 1:17
    But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
     
  14. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Just say you don't know, because you break them daily,
    if not hourly. Just because you will not go to hell if you
    are saved, doesn't mean there are no consequences for
    breaking his laws. The curses in Deuteronomy 28 are not
    about sin but action-reaction. You may want to read
    them carefully.
     
  15. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Could you please support action reaction with scripture please?
     
  16. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Has already what, been put into effect?

    I would have to see what scripture has been fulfilled
    and how. As I showed, we don't have the law written
    on our hearts just yet.
     
  17. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Right in the verses I gave. Do this, and this will happen.
    Do that and that will happen. Cause and effect.

    Deuteronomy 28
    1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
    2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.

    15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    WOW, got to the root deception faster than I expected.

    Or, perhaps the "we" you are referring to do not have the TORAH written on their hearts yet ? (most people on earth don't)

    Meanwhile, the ecclesia currently do have the law written on their hearts already, by YHWH, and clearly , as written for one in ROMANS 2 (even the gentiles who YHWH wrote TORAH on their hearts, who have no TORAH as in writing or study or 'doctrine' but in their hearts as written and they are justified for DOING TORAH and not just hearing it; while those who hear TORAH, but don't DO it, are NOT justified) ....
     
  19. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as Hell. As a Christian I believe that I am under the New Covenant, and that I do not have to keep the Mosaic law of the old priesthood.
     
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    There is nothing in this passage that says the captives are Christians. Nor are we told when this will take place. It may have already been fulfilled when Israel came out of Babylon or it may be fulfilled by unbelieving Gentiles who enter into the Millennium.
     
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