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Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. SteveCaruso

    SteveCaruso Translator

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    Much better. :) ן is not ו.

    You've copy-pasted that very same OCR error that a first year student would be able to correct several times without citing it properly at first contact. :)

    There are still no documented cases of any Aramaic languages where the initial vowel of ישוע is a-class, but plenty of contemporary witnesses in other languages with phonetic alphabets that attest an e-class vowel ( Greek, Latin, etc.) and every Aramaic language in the same family as Jesus spoke used e-class vowel markings, too.
     
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  2. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Hi Hark.
    God cursed the ground. This curse caused the ground to produce things which were not previously coming from the ground. I think it is obvious the things coming from the cursed ground, were not for Adam to eat, hence eating from the ground became very difficult. As that which was brought of the curse made that which was for food, to be less numerous.
    As Job tells us.
    Ge 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    Job 31:40 Let thistles grow instead of wheat, and cockle instead of barley. The words of Job are ended.
    While Goats can eat a lot of things, as well as cattle, this curse was upon man's food source.
    As for giving animals for food....God said he gave all animals just like he gave in the beginning before the curse of the ground...All was given for food.
    Ge 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  3. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I did not say everything was the same between the Mosaic and New Covenants, but that that the laws are the same. God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), so therefore also are all of God's righteous laws (Psalms 119:160), so while I agree that the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic Covenant, the way that they are not alike is not in regard to God's righteousness changing or the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness changing.

    There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage between God and Israel, such with Jeremiah 31:32, where God describes Himself as her husband and with verses that describe Israel's unfaithfulness as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce, and God can only become divorced if He has first been married (Jeremiah 3:8). However, throughout Jeremiah 3:1-14, God still called for Israel to return to Him, which raises a rather significant problem for those who know the Law because according to Deuteronomy 24:1-4, a woman is prohibited from returning to her first husband after she has been divorced and been with another. The only way for her to be released from her adultery would be if her first marriage contract was dissolved through the death of her husband, so it was a mystery how God would work this out. This is the issue that Paul was referring to in Romans 7:1-4, when he said that he was speaking to those who know the Law, so we have died to the law of our husband through his death on the cross so that we might be free to belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God. Incidentally, it would not make any sense to interpret this verse as saying that we need to die to God's instructions for how to live for Him that we might be free to live for Him. So Mosaic and New Covenants are all about God's marriage, divorce, and remarriage to Israel. As such, the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to know Him and have an intimate relationship with Him.

    The covenant that God originally intended to make with Israel was predicated on the condition that they would hear and obey God's voice (Exodus 19:5), but that is not the covenant that they ended up making because upon hearing God's voice they got cold feet and wanted Moses to act as a mediator instead, where God would speak to him and they would obey Moses (Exodus 20:19), so they ended up with a different covenant, that God nevertheless agreed to. It was exactly like a man saving his damsel in distress out of slavery and proposing to her, and with her agreeing, but then deciding on her wedding day that she only wanted to interact with him through mediator, which he nevertheless agreed to out of His love for her. This was less than ideal because Moses could not be everywhere, which quickly led to problems that would not have happened if the people had been listening to God's voice. So it became necessary for Moses to write down God's instructions for how to walk in His ways in lieu of the people being instructed how to do that by hearing God's voice (Deuteronomy 5:22-33). So the New Covenant is what the Mosaic Covenant was originally intended to be and is not like the Mosaic Covenant in that it does not have man as a mediator to instruct us how to know the Lord, but that we have direct access to God, which is the difference that Jeremiah 31:34 describes for how they are not alike. The Greek word translated as "new" in "New Covenant" can also be translated as "renewed", so I think it would be appropriate to translate it that way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    That's an inference that you made That's not what YHWH actually said.

    Yet wheat still grows. Although one might have to work very hard to clear the field of thistles; then nurture the wheat to maturity.

    Not respecting YHWH's instructions to let fields rest, will also change the balance of nature in an adverse way.

    Thistle has numerous health benefits. It's God given food; but it shouldn't be abused.
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    We usually see eye to eye on many subjects, but I can't agree with this if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying Yeshua was Israel's husband (Almighty YHWH) and that now that he died Israel can be married to another (to Yeshua who is really not "another")? Very confusing.
     
  7. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Well if thorns and thistles grew before, they were good for food. But weeds, being any unwanted herbage is clear enough for me anyway. Something grew which caused Adam to toil to get food. Not to much inference really, thistles as we know them were not necessarily what was meant here. Especially in light of Job.
    thistles <01863> As found in Genesis
    01863 דרדר dardar dar-dar’
    of uncertain derivation; n m; [BDB-205a] {See TWOT on 454 @@ "454e"}
    AV-thistle 2; 2
    1) thistles, thorns
    Thistles as found in Job
    thistles <02336>
    02336 חוח chowach kho’-akh
    from an unused root apparently meaning to pierce; n m; [BDB-296a] {See TWOT on 620 @@ "620a"} {See TWOT on 620 @@ "620b"}
    AV-thistle(s) 5, thorn(s) 5, brambles 1; 11
    1) thorn, brier, bramble, thornbush, thicket
    2) hook, ring, fetter
    cockle <0890> also in job
    0890 באשׁה bo’shah bosh-aw’
    from 0889; n f; [BDB-93a] {See TWOT on 195 @@ "195b"}
    AV-cockle 1; 1
    1) stinking things, stinking or noxious weeds, stinkweed

    Anyway it is ok to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Outstanding! It's a keeper. Thanks for sharing.
     
  9. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" or "assembly" and is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to Israel in the wilderness, so starting with them, the Church has always been referred to as the bride of Christ. In the Targum, it actually gives credit to the Word of God as being the one who gave the Law at Sinai, so I think that he was the one to whom Israel was married and the one to who the Northern Kingdom became divorced. However, he continued to call for her to return and become remarried to him, but that was something that the Law prohibited her from doing. When her husband died, it dissolved her marriage contract with him, which meant that she was now free to become remarried to him. This again is the point that Paul was making in Romans 7:4, that through the death of Messiah, she died to the law that was prohibiting her from becoming remarried to him so that she could be free to belong to him in order to bear fruit for God. I agree that it is a bit confusing, so I'm not sure how to explain it better, though I think that Paul was pretty excited by revelation of God's plan to reconcile Israel to Himself.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    If God calls it food; who am I too say that because I call it a weed that it is not food?

    Dandilions are considered weeds by many; but they are also very nutritious. Habanero peppers and prunes are considered food by most people; but if that was all that was readily available to eat; I'd be uncomfortably hungry, even with copious supplies of these foods on hand.
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I have wrestled with the question of whether I am obligated to Torah (including Oral Torah) or whether I simply obey it out of love. The question is still an open one for me. Because God has not clearly shown me that I am under obligation, I profess that I keep it out of love, because I certainly do do that. But there is certainly good evidence on both sides.

    For me, the 10 commandments were simply supposed to be an introduction to covenant, a foot in the door. Every word that God dictated to Moses that Moses transcribed is every single bit as binding on me as the Decalogue. Further, anything that God passed along orally to Moses to tell Israel that Moses didn't write down, but got passed own is also equally binding.

    Finally, God granted the kind of authority to the Judges that meant life and death if you questioned their rulings -- that may not be the same level of authority as the Torah, but it's pretty darn near close. So if the Rabbis tell me to light Shabbos candles, I think I really should.
     
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Rabbi's also mislead the people.
     
  13. janwoG

    janwoG My heart leads me to Messianic Judaism Supporter

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    One has to know if we are bound by the written law or the written and oral law. At least the written law. The oral law is loaded with human traditions, therefore difficult to assess.
     
  14. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Israel in the wilderness was NOT the bride of Christ. Israel was married to YHWH. YHWH is Messiah’s Father (Psalm 2:7).

    The Targum is a document in which man breaks YHWH’s laws by adding words into the text. I reject it and cannot use it to build doctrines upon.

    It seems to me that this is only applicable literally, not spiritually. Besides, the command only pertains to a woman who was divorced lawfully and remarried. Israel never remarried.

    Israel’s husband YHWH never died. Since Israel never remarried, she is free to remarry YHWH. Believers died thereby freeing them to be married to Yeshua.
     
  15. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Israel was put to death as a nation. (As a parable) This time the Messiah Yahshua will be the groom.
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I feel like you have not really interacted with what I've said. I've done my best to explain why I hold my position, so if you think that I have interpreted anything incorrectly, then please explain why, and alternatively, please explain your reasons for holding a different position. I see nothing in Scripture that suggests that Israel was put to death as a nation, but rather one of the better promises that the New Covenant was based upon was that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-36). There is also much that is said about the restoration of Israel and according to Acts 15:16-17, they saw themselves as this fulfillment in quoting Amos 9:11-12. I'm not sure what you mean by "(as a parable) this time).
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Most of the NT quotes found in the NT are taken from the Septuagint, which uses the word Greek "kyrios" to translate "YHWH". In Malachi 3:1, God said that He would send a messenger that would prepare a way before Him, and in Isaiah 40:3, it says to prepare the way for kyrios or YHWH. In Mark 1:2-3, it quotes this passage in regard to preparing the way for Yeshua, so he was saying that Yeshua was the kyrios or YHWH. Again, in Mark 2:28, Jesus said that he was the kyrios of the Sabbath, so he was clearly identifying as YHWH, who gave the Sabbath regulations. In Psalms 89:8-9 and Psalms 107:23-30, it is YHWH who has command over the sea and the wind and who calms them, and in Mark 4:39-41, it is Yeshua who commands what only YHWH has command over. Furthermore, in Mark 6:48-51, Jesus walked in the water, and in Job 9:8, it is God alone who stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. His response of "I AM" in verse 50 is also a claim to being God, who controls all of nature. In Psalms 103:2-5 and many other verses, it is YHWH alone who forgives sin and heals all of our diseases and in Mark 2:5-12, that is what Yeshua did. In 1 Samuel 8:6-7, it is YHWH who is King of the Jews, so Yeshua was identify as YHWH when he said that he was King of the Jews in Mark 15:2. There are many other verses that proclaim YHWH is King and Yeshua is our only King.

    Yeshua is also addressed many times as kyrios throughout Matthew, and considering that it was written to a community of Jewish believers, they would not have missed that connection. Again, he referred to himself as kyrios in Matthew 7:21-22. There are many verses in the OT where it is YHWH who judges, yet here it is Yeshua who is judging on the last day. In Matthew 25:31-46, it again Yeshua who is judging and the Son of Man who is kyrios. Only YHWH was worshiped by Jews, but Yeshua was worshiped in Matthew 2:2, 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, and 28:16. There is more, but I think this should be sufficient to show that the writers of the Gospels considered Yeshua to be YHWH.

    There is a difference between adding a new command and explaining what is there. In Nehemiah 8:8, it says that they read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read, and it does not treat it like they were committing a sin. Where the Targum has value in not in being a literal translation, but in expressing how these concepts were anciently understood.

    The New Covenant is Israel's remarriage to Yeshua and Romans 7:4 is speaking in this regard about Israel's remarriage to Yeshua and about how his death was what allowed this to happen in accordance with the Law.
     
  18. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I totally disagree with everything you wrote, but to reply would be to seriously derail this thread. I will consider sending you, and anyone else interested in a reply, a PM.
     
  19. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    (The Seed of Israel) are the people. The eternal covenant was that the (The Seed of Abraham) would inherit the earth.

    Isaiah 65:15
    You will leave your name (Jew) for my chosen ones to use in their curses; the Sovereign Lord will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name. (Christian)
     
  20. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Christ is the "Son of David."
    Amos 9:11
    [ Israel’s Restoration ] “In that day “I will restore David’s fallen shelter— I will repair its broken walls and restore its ruins— and will rebuild it as it used to be,
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Acts 15:16
    “‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
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