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Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, Dec 23, 2017.

  1. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Not to cause a debate, but just out of curiosity, since the feasts and festivals are dictated by Law, why would you keep those laws and not the others?
     
  2. Godsfollower

    Godsfollower Prepare the Way!

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    Which other laws are you referring to? The Ten Commandments? If you are referring to those, I also try my best to keep those, even the Sabbath.

    Jesus said, I did not come to abolish the law, but the fulfill it. He came to teach us how to properly follow them. The pharisees thought they understood it, but Jesus rebuked them.
     
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I'm talking about the laws of the Torah, which number 613. Things like not sleeping with a menstruating woman, not eating shellfish, etc.
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense! Net Hillel might almost match up with Yahshua's teachings; but Yahshua's teachings exactly match YHWH's intent. Yahshua understood the Torah without fail. If Bet Hillel understood anything correctly; it's because they understood the Torah, sometimes. Even so, I feel confident that Yahshua didn't need them to teach him the Torah.
     
  6. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Yes. See, I can make assertions without
    bothering to give facts too.

    Yes again. Every command in the bible is
    Yahweh's command. And nobody asked
    for one of the 10 in that question.
     
  7. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Too? I wasn't aware that asking a question constitutes making an assertion.

    Again, you failed to provide any direct command against being a drunkard. I asked for any direct command not to be a drunkard.

     
  8. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    I can understand why somethings might be kept and not others. Consider Passover for example. This feast was not from Sinai, but Moriah. The Passover was a feast to remember the fulfillment of God's promise in covenant 430 years earlier to Abraham. Christ our Passover and memorial is also the fulfillment of Promises made 430 years before Sinai. As were all the feasts that concerned the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision, IMO....Passover through Pentecost. As these feasts had to do with redemption from slavery, and inheriting the land. All of which had to do with the promises made in covenant with Abraham 430 years before Moses gave the law from Sinai.
    Similarly acts says of the keeping of circumcision
    Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. The same could be said of the Passover and the feasts concerning the land.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 6
    9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
     
  10. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Oh, we all seem to know that it is wrong; but I have yet to find a commandment against it. That is my point. Yahweh's law goes deeper than the Ten Words. It goes deeper than the 613. It goes deeper than the love in our hearts for Yahweh.
     
  11. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Drunkenness is discouraged.
     
  12. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Yet being a drunkard doesn't seem to violate any direct commandment; but, as you demonstrated, drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom. Obedience to YHWH is a deep subject.
     
  13. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    There can be good reasons for drinking, such as pain; that could be allowable.
     
  14. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    I answered both questions and got back no and no
    with a short statement but no facts.
    Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

    No scripture is commentary.
    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
     
  15. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Ephesians 5:18
    And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
     
  16. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    You made thew positive assertion. See: Shifting the Burden of Proof

    While you're at it you might want to look at Proof of a Negative, under Logical Fallacies.

    Apparently you don't understand the difference between commands and commentary.

    For your review:

    Definition of commentary
    plural commentaries
    1 a : an explanatory treatise —usually used in plural
    • Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England
    b : a record of events usually written by a participant —usually used in plural
    • Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War
    2 a : a systematic series of explanations or interpretations (as of a writing)
    • a commentary on Dante's Divine Comedy
    b : comment 2
    3 a : something that serves for illustration or explanation
    • The dark, airless apartments and sunless factories … are a sad commentary upon our civilization.
    • —Harry Allen Overstreet
    b : an expression of opinion
    • The magazine article is a commentary on cyberbullying.



    See commentary defined for English-language learners

    See commentary defined for kids


    Definition of command
    transitive verb
    1 : to direct authoritatively : order
    • commanded adherence to the rules
    2 : to exercise a dominating influence over : have command of: such as
    a : to have at one's immediate disposal
    • commands many resources
    b : to demand or receive as one's due
    • commands a high fee
    c : to overlook or dominate from or as if from a strategic position
    • a hill that commands the city
    d : to have military command of as senior officer
    • command a regiment
    3 obsolete : to order or request to be given
    intransitive verb
    1 : to have or exercise direct authority : govern
    • The king knows how to command well.
    2 : to give orders
    • The master commands, and the servants obey.
    3 : to be commander
    • The general will command at the western front.
    4 : to dominate as if from an elevated place

    commandable
    play \kə-ˈman-də-bəl\ adjective



    See command defined for English-language learners

    See command defined for kids

    By the way, when that verse was written, it wasn't considered scripture, in that context, at that time; nor was the rest of the Brit Chadashah, for that matter. He was referring to the Torah
    .

    Shabbat shalom.
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Again, good advice, not the direct command of Yahweh.
     
  18. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Drinking is no more wrong than eating. Drunkeness is liken to gluttony. There's no good reason for it. It's destructive to the Temple.
     
  19. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    He wasn't just talking about the Torah, but the whole Tanakh.
    And we don't live in the first or second century AD. The NT has
    been canonized and is scripture, so all rules of scripture apply.

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Now, we go back to what you never answered.

    pat34lee said: ↑
    First question -- #1, 4, 6, 9, 10

    Second question --
    Proverbs 20:1
    1 Corinthians 5:11
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    Ephesians 5:8
    Galatians 5:21
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    OK maybe the Tanakh. He didn't define scripture; but, despite your conjecture, we can still rule out the Brit Chadashah, since it was not scripture at the time. Sorry, he wasn't talking about scripture that didn't exist; and no matter how much you idolize the men who canonized what you call scripture; they were not Timothy; so they can't speak for him.

    This is basic logic.

    Aside from that, Timothy did not say anything about commandments in that verse. I asked for commandments. You failed to provide.

    Is this scripture?:

    (CLV) Jer 8:8
    How can you say, We are wise, And the law of Yahweh is with us? Surely, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made a falsehood.

    If so, what is Jeremiah talking about?

    ::Sighs:: Fear that I'm about to a new network of tunnels to this bottomless bunny hole.




    I asked the question. You failed to provide an adequate answer. I said NO. I haven't changed my response. If you believe that that any of those commands prohibit homo orgies; the onus is on you to prove it. You've still failed to do so.

    Again, SEE: BURDEN OF PROOF!

    Again, no direct commandments from YHWH; The only verse that might even count as scripture as mentioned by Timothy, is Proverbs. Proverbs are not the commandments of YHWH.

    You've failed to prove otherwise.
     
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