Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

Open Heart

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I disagree; and so do the Karait Jews.
The Karaites are great people but they do not practice Judaism. Theirs is a heresy OF Judaism. Saying that Karaites practice Judaism is a bit like saying that Baptists practice Catholicism.
 
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HARK!

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The Karaites are great people but they do not practice Judaism. Theirs is a heresy OF Judaism. Saying that Karaites practice Judaism is a bit like saying that Baptists practice Catholicism.

No true Scotsman (Fallacy)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman.
No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.[1][2] Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


Did Yahshua follow the Talmud?

SATANIC VERSES OF THE TALMUD’S
BLASPHEMIES AGAINST JESUS CHRIST, THE VIRGIN MARY,
& ALL CHRISTIANS

* “‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.” (Gittin 57a)

[’Yashu’ is an acronym for the Jewish curse, ‘May his (Jesus) name be wiped out forevermore.’]

* Yashu (Jesus) was sexually immoral and worshipped a brick.” (Sanhedrin 107b)

* “Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent.” (Sotah 47a)

* “Miriam the hairdresser had sex with many men.” (Shabbath 104b, Hebrew Edition only)

* “She who was the descendant of princes and governors (the virgin Mary) played the harlot with carpenters.” (Sanhedrin 106a)

* “Christians who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.” (Rosh Hashanah 17a)
 
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HARK!

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There is no heresy fallacy.

Did Yahshua follow the Talmud?

SATANIC VERSES OF THE TALMUD’S
BLASPHEMIES AGAINST JESUS CHRIST, THE VIRGIN MARY,
& ALL CHRISTIANS

* “‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.” (Gittin 57a)

[’Yashu’ is an acronym for the Jewish curse, ‘May his (Jesus) name be wiped out forevermore.’]

* Yashu (Jesus) was sexually immoral and worshipped a brick.” (Sanhedrin 107b)

* “Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent.” (Sotah 47a)

* “Miriam the hairdresser had sex with many men.” (Shabbath 104b, Hebrew Edition only)

* “She who was the descendant of princes and governors (the virgin Mary) played the harlot with carpenters.” (Sanhedrin 106a)

* “Christians who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.” (Rosh Hashanah 17a)
 
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HARK!

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Yeshua followed the Oral Torah.

Proof?

Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 
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CherubRam

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You don't think you can come up with a definition of Judaism that will be fairly universal? Are you admitting that you have your own ideosyncratic made up Judaism that has no relationship to the real Judaism?
You sure are pushy. It is only important to you. I have more important things to think about. Have a nice day.
 
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CherubRam

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Imperial Aramaic Old Aramaic Biblical Aramaic or Hebrew

The term, “Imperial Aramaic” refers to a historic variety of Aramaic, as spoken and written during the period roughly from 600 BCE to 200 CE. The Imperial Aramaic form which changed the least is now used for writing the Hebrew language. By the third century CE, variant forms of the script had diverged into distinct scripts such as Syriac, Nabataean, and Palmyran.
Europeanization of Hebrew.
Most likely the “e” vowel became part of Hebrew between 300 AD to 600AD.
Hebrew was revived by Jewish people thinking and speaking in modern European languages.

Note on Mishnaic Hebrew.
The earliest Rabbinic literature dates from the period 70-200 CE and it is written in a spoken Hebrew of the time, often called, after the most famous literary product of the time, Mishnaic Hebrew. Mishnaic Hebrew is very different from Biblical Hebrew.

Phonemes are normally conceived of as abstractions of discrete segmental speech sounds of vowels and consonants. The e sound may or may not have been produced in any ancient language. There is no facts to back it up. It is a presumption that the e sound would have been (possibly) produced in the language from the main (actual vowels) and consonants.

Quoted from Lipinski 1997 "Although additional vocalic phonemes have arisen in various Semitic languages, there are no sufficient grounds to suppose that other vowels belong to the original core of the Semitic phonemic system..."

There is no doubt that there was an e sound. The e sound in Hebrew did not become a vowel until after the second century AD. The WAH in Hebrew has an ae sound, so that could have lead to the biblical Hebrew spelling Yahw/e/h.



Theos means Deus in Latin, and in English it means god.

God
Ancient Hebrew: IL.
Aramaic: IL.
Hebrew: EL.
English: God.
Spanish: Dios.
Italian: Iddio, Dio.
German: Gutes, Gott.
Germanic, Old French: Gott.
French: Dieux, Dieu.
Greek: Theo, Theos.
Latin: Deus.
Norwegian: Gud.
Swedish: Gud.
Portugese: Deus.

See the change in Hebrew where the letter "I" becomes an "E."



§7. The Vowels in General, Vowel Letters and Vowel Signs.

7a 1. The original vowels in Hebrew, as in the other Semitic tongues, are, a, i, u. E and o always arise from an obscuring or contraction of these three pure sounds, viz. ĕ by modification from ĭ or ă; short ŏ from ŭ; ê by contraction from ai (properly ay); and ô sometimes by modification (obscuring) from â, sometimes by contraction from au (properly aw).

As an example of the original consonant being retained, we might also include the י‎ of the constr. state plur. masc. if its ê (according to §89d) is contracted from an original ay. Against this, however, it may be urged that the Phoenician inscriptions do not usually express this ê, nor any other final vowel.[6]

7e (b) The employment of ו‎ to denote ô, û, and of י‎ to denote ê, î, may have resulted from those cases in which a ו‎ with a preceding a was contracted into au and further to ô, or with a preceding u coalesced into û, and where י‎with a has been contracted into ai and further to ê, or with a preceding i into î (cf. § 24). In this case the previously existing consonants were retained as vowel letters and were further applied at the end of the word to denote the respective long vowels. Finally א‎ also will in the first instance have established itself as a vowel letter only where a consonantal א‎ with a preceding a had coalesced into â or ā.

Source: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesen...e_Vowels_in_General,_Vowel_Letters_and_Vowel_ Signs
 
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Open Heart

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You sure are pushy. It is only important to you. I have more important things to think about. Have a nice day.
Oh, yes. In debates I come on strong. In my family we have feisty debates! It's how we learn, and it's never anything personal. It challenges the interlocutor to produce better arguments.

Anyhow, you are certainly under no obligation to continue the discussion. However, FWIW, I found it enjoyable. I like talking to you very much. You are an interesting person.
 
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Open Heart

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You mean besides the fact that Jesus taught many oral traditions such as the sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath? Here are two blatant examples of Jesus directly ordering the following of Oral Torah:

1. Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus tells his followers to do EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach. The Pharisees taught Oral Torah.

2. Matthew 23:23 Jesus instructs the Pharisees to BOTH keep the basics of the Law AND the Oral Law (the spice tax).

Jesus' main complaint with the Pharisees was not oral Torah, but their hypocricy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy.

Jesus also rejected the traditions of the Beit Shammai Pharisees, which were MUCH more stringent than the Beit Hillel Pharisees. When you read the couple of complaints against traditions, this is what his statements are referring to. But Jesus' own teachings were quite in line with the traditions of Beit Hillel.
 
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Open Heart

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* “‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.”
Yeshua was one of the most common names in Judaism at the time of the writing of the Talmud. All these references to "Yeshua" are references to other Yeshuas. The truth is, the Talmud doesn't really think OUR Yeshua was worth mentioning.
 
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HARK!

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You mean besides the fact that Jesus taught many oral traditions such as the sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath?

Have you even read Mark 2? Yahshua was breaking their oral torah. They obviously were not worthy to teach.

1. Matthew 23:1-3 Jesus tells his followers to do EVERYTHING the Pharisees teach. The Pharisees taught Oral Torah.

The Torah given to Moshe was read from the Moshe Seat. Do what they say from the Torah!

Did you read this chapter?

The very next verse:

(CLV) Mt 23:4
"Now they are binding loads, heavy and hard to bear, and are placing them on on men's shoulders
, yet they are not willing to stir them with their finger.

That was what they were doing!

What does Yahshua do?

He doesn't bind. He invites. Yahweh is an Elohim of liberty.

(CLV) Mt 11:29
Lift My yoke upon you and be learning from Me, for meek am I and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your souls,

(CLV) Mt 11:30
for My yoke is kindly and My load is light."

Verse 8:

(CLV) Mt 23:8
"Now you may not be called `Rabbi,' for One is your Teacher, yet you all are brethren.

Again, not even worthy to teach..

Verse 10:

(CLV) Mt 23:10
Nor yet may you be called preceptors, for One is your Preceptor, the Christ.

Not even worthy to tutor.

Then Yahshua ramps it up a bit:
(CLV) Mt 23:15
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! tfor you are going about the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming~ one, you are making him more than double a son of Gehenna than you are.

(CLV) Mt 23:16
"Woe to you, blind guides! who are saying, `Whoever should be swearing iby the temple, it is nothing; yet whoever should be swearing by the gold of the temple is owing.'

(CLV) Mt 23:17
Stupid and blind! for which is greater, the gold, or the temple that hallows the gold?

(CLV) Mt 23:18
And, `Whoever should be swearing by the altar, it is nothing; yet whoever should be swearing by the approach present upon it is owing.'

(CLV) Mt 23:19
Stupid and blind! for which is greater, the approach present, or the altar that is hallowing the approach present?

Do you really believe that Yahshua is telling his followers to follow these men?

(CLV) Mt 15:14
Leave them! Blind guides are they of the blind! Now if the blind should be guiding the blind, both shall be falling into a pit."




2. Matthew 23:23 Jesus instructs the Pharisees to BOTH keep the basics of the Law AND the Oral Law (the spice tax).

He didn't say to keep the spice tax. Look at this verse carefully.

(CLV) Mt 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are taking tithes from the mint and the dill and the cumin, and leave the weightier matters of the law, judging and mercy and faith. Now these it was binding for you to do, and not leave those.

This verse is about loving money more than Yahweh.

(CLV) 1Ti 6:10
For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain.

Do you really believe that Yahshua is telling us to let these men guide us with what they conjure up in their wicked imaginations; as they ignore the Torah to which Yahshua was obedient?


Jesus' main complaint with the Pharisees was not oral Torah, but their hypocricy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy.

That may or may not be true; but let's recognize that assertion for what it really is: your opinion.

That said, it was far from Yahshua's only complaint with the Pharisees.

Jesus also rejected the traditions of the Beit Shammai Pharisees, which were MUCH more stringent than the Beit Hillel Pharisees. When you read the couple of complaints against traditions, this is what his statements are referring to. But Jesus' own teachings were quite in line with the traditions of Beit Hillel.

Yahshua didn't differentiate when he said Pharisees. That's pure speculation on your part.

I'm going to do a little speculating myself. I'm going speculate that when Yahshua said Pharisees; he meant just that, Pharisees.
 
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HARK!

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Yeshua was one of the most common names in Judaism at the time of the writing of the Talmud. All these references to "Yeshua" are references to other Yeshuas.

Really? Who are these other Yashua's; and if they weren't worth mentioning, why are they trying so hard to blot out their names? Who is this other Miriam? The similarities are striking. If, in your opinion, Yahshua is not worth mentioning; why are his followers worth mentioning?
 
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Open Heart

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Really? Who are these other Yashua's; and if they weren't worth mentioning, why are they trying so hard to blot out their names? Who is this other Miriam? The similarities are striking. If, in your opinion, Yahshua is not worth mentioning; why are his followers worth mentioning?
If you want to know who these other Yeshuas are, read what is written about them. The disciples are not mentioned.
 
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Open Heart

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Have you even read Mark 2? Yahshua was breaking their oral torah. They obviously were not worthy to teach.
Not very nice of you to not specify which verses in Mark 2. I'm assuming you are referring to Jesus' disciples picking ears of corn.

1. He is replying to Beit Shammai Pharisees. Beit Hillel Pharisees (which Jesus' teachings mirrored) taught that one could violate the Shabbat to save a life, i.e. if one was starving.

2. I suspect that afterwards Jesus had a good long talk with his disciples about how a little bit of preparation in advance of the Shabbat would have solved the problem. However, it is possible that they simply didn't have the money to buy food, and so were employing their lawful right to enter a field and eat until not hungry, which is lawful on the Shabbat according to Beit Hillel.

These disputes between different schools of Pharisees were common and an ordinary part of Jewish life. The Talmud records many of them. Jesus' disputes were the epitomy of normal.
 
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Open Heart

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The Torah given to Moshe was read from the Moshe Seat. Do what they say from the Torah!
No, that is NOT what is said. Yeshua says that the PHARISEES sit on the seat of Moses, meaning they have the authority to teach passed down from Moses to the seventy elders. Reference Deuteronomy 17:8-13 This is why it is imperative that according to Jesus his followers do and observe ALL that they teach (including Oral Torah).
 
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Open Heart

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He didn't say to keep the spice tax. Look at this verse carefully.

(CLV) Mt 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are taking tithes from the mint and the dill and the cumin, and leave the weightier matters of the law, judging and mercy and faith. Now these it was binding for you to do, and not leave those.
Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. (Meaning the spice tax.)
 
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This kind of separation leads one to believe the Mosaic Laws are not moral laws, but they most certainly are. For example, moving our neighbor's boundary marker is totally immoral.
Which of the 10 commandments would apply directly to boundary markers ? I agree that the Mosaic laws , are also moral laws .
 
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