Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

[gadar perets]

That is because the congregation got away from
discipling and started teaching.

What is the difference? A disciple is a student of the one doing the discipling who is a teacher.

 

[Open Heart]

That is because the congregation got away from
discipling and started teaching.

Could you please explain what you consider to be the difference between discipling and teaching?

 

[CherubRam]

Words can have more than one meaning. A bat can be a stick you hit a ball with or a flying mammal. Gehinnom, in addition to being a garbage dump, is also a place of temporary punishment for sin.

Jews pray for the relief of the soul while in Gehinnom (one year). Judaism has no concept of an eternal hell. This idea came with Christianity. In Judaism, the soul that is so bad that it couldn't be salvaged is annihilated. Or at least that it is how it is with most scholars -- you know how it is; two Jews, three opinions.

Jewish Views of the Afterlife: What Is Gehenna?

Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Gehenna is a word used as a parable to mean destruction. Gehinnom is not an afterlife realm. That is Paganism not Judaism.

 

[Open Heart]

Gehenna is a word used as a parable to mean destruction. Gehinnom is not an afterlife realm. That is Paganism not Judaism.

You are mistaken on all counts.

 

[CherubRam]

You are mistaken on all counts.

You are always making jokes like this. How about some facts?

 

[Open Heart]

You are always making jokes like this. How about some facts?

I made assertions and gave sources. No jokes.

 

[Elihoenai]

Egypt is the price for Israel!


Isaiah 43:3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 For I -- Jehovah thy God, The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour, I have appointed Egypt thine atonement, Cush and Seba in thy stead.


Matthew 15:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

24 and he answering said, `I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

 

[CherubRam]

I made assertions and gave sources. No jokes.

Your sources are junk.

 

[Open Heart]

Your sources are junk.

LOL, okay CherubRam. I love you and happy new year.

 

[CherubRam]

LOL, okay CherubRam. I love you and happy new year.

Happy New Year. I did not like your sources because they combined some Pagan notions.

 

[Open Heart]

Happy New Year. I did not like your sources because they combined some Pagan notions.

They were Jewish sources.

 

[CherubRam]

They were Jewish sources.

I believe you. Not all who claim to be Orthodox Jews follow true Judaism.

 

[Open Heart]

I believe you. Not all who claim to be Orthodox Jews follow true Judaism.

Wow. Who are you to be telling Jews practicing Judaism that they are not following true Judaism? I think this is the sort of thing that Jews should work out among themselves. As it stands, it's a Jewish site, recognized by all Jews. Other Jewish sites say similar, using different words. Like I said, not all Jews agree -- two Jews three opinions--but what I gave is the most common view among the Orthodox. We have several Orthodox regulars here. They are welcome to chime in.

 

[CherubRam]

Wow. Who are you to be telling Jews practicing Judaism that they are not following true Judaism?

I am a Judaic Christian. Judaic means "pertaining to Judaism." If it is not PURE Judaism, then I am against it.

 

[Open Heart]

I am a Judaic Christian. Judaic means "pertaining to Judaism." If it is not PURE Judaism, then I am against it.

Do you believe you are practicing Judaism?

 

[CherubRam]

Do you believe you are practicing Judaism?

Under the New Covenant, yes.

 

[Open Heart]

Under the New Covenant, yes.

Okay, now we are ready to rock and roll! I'd like for you to make your case.

First define what Judaism is, its essence -- make sure it is a definition that the everyone is going to agree with. IOW you can't just make up a definition that is idiosyncratic to you, you don't get to do that, you have to actually use a working understanding of the English language and knowledge of the religion.

Second, show how your own personal Judaic-Christian faith fits that definition.

I'm keeping an open mind. After all, I do believe that MJ is a Judaism, so it's possible you can convince me. But know that I'm intellectually demanding -- you're going to have to come up with a REALLY good argument.

For example, here is my own argument that MJ is a Judaism. It is not a perfect argument, but I'd say it's a far better argument than the Reform Jews have. Now, if I were a genius like Mark Kinzer, I'd write an entire book and call it "Post Missionary Messianic Judaism," but I'm just little ol' me, so you'll have to settle for a few paragraphs.

I'm going to define the essence of Judaism using Maimonides 13 articles of Judaism, reliance on the Talmud, and dependence of Jewish identity upon Torah observance. Everyone in the world is going to agree with that, even those that might hem and haw and want to add other points. IOW, I'm not making up some private "Open Heart's Definition of Judaism." I'm just giving my best summary of what's out there.

1. Maimonides gives the 13 principals of Judaism, and MJ fits it. There is a question over the ECHAD of Hashem, but for me, the fact that Trinitarianism CLEARLY states that God is ONE makes it fall within ECHAD. There is another question regarding corporality, as the Son became incarnate. However, that is only the Son; the Father and Spirit did not. It is obvious that the non-corporeal article is referring to the Father.
2. A major feature of Judaism is that the Law cannot be understood without the Talmud/Oral Law. Even Reform Jews, though they do not follow the Talmud the way the Orthodox do, have not thrown it away entirely, and consider it a sacred text, giving it great honor. Those forms of MJ which incorporate elements of the Talmud (such as lighting Shabbat candles, celebrating Chanukah, separating meat and dairy, etc.) are a Judaism. Those "sola scriptura" versions of MJ which do not, are not a Judaism, but are more of a form of Protestantism.
3. Unlike Messianism in general, the purpose of MJ is for Jews to strengthen our Jewish identity through following the Torah. (I'm not knocking Messianism, I'm just making a distinction here.) (Note--it's not that keeping Torah establishes Jewish identity, but it's the best way of not forgetting it.) If it were not for this focus, the adherents would simply attend regular churches. Having this focus, doing mitzvot, keeping the Shabbat, eating Kosher, keeping the Holy Days, basically, being orthoprax, is the same emphasis as Judaism. As Mark Kinzer so aptly points out, It is Messianic that is the adjective and Judaism that is the noun. These are Jews doing Judaism who happen to believe in Mashiach--not really a whole lot different from the Chabadniks.

 

[CherubRam]

First define what Judaism is, its essence -- make sure it is a definition that the everyone is going to agree with. IOW you can't just make up a definition that is idiosyncratic to you, you don't get to do that, you have to actually use a working understanding of the English language and knowledge of the religion.

Second, show how your own personal Judaic-Christian faith fits that definition.

I'm keeping an open mind. After all, I do believe that MJ is a Judaism, so it's possible you can convince me. But know that I'm intellectually demanding -- you're going to have to come up with a REALLY good argument.

For example, here is my own argument that MJ is a Judaism. It is not a perfect argument, but I'd say it's a far better argument than the Reform Jews have.

1. Maimonides gives the 13 principals of Judaism, and MJ fits it. There is a question over the ECHAD of Hashem, but for me, the fact that Trinitarianism CLEARLY states that God is ONE makes it fall within ECHAD. There is another question regarding corporality, as the Son became incarnate. However, that is only the Son; the Father and Spirit did not. It is obvious that the non-corporeal article is referring to the Father.
2. A major feature of Judaism is that the Law cannot be understood without the Talmud/Oral Law. Even Reform Jews, though they do not follow the Talmud the way the Orthodox do, have not thrown it away entirely, and consider it a sacred text, giving it great honor. Those forms of MJ which incorporate elements of the Talmud (such as lighting Shabbat candles, celebrating Chanukah, separating meat and dairy, etc.) are a Judaism. Those "sola scriptura" versions of MJ which do not, are not a Judaism, but are more of a form of Protestantism.
3. Unlike Messianism in general, the purpose of MJ is for Jews to strengthen their Jewish identity through following the Torah. (I'm not knocking Messianism, I'm just making a distinction here.) If it were not for this focus, the adherents would simply attend regular churches. Having this focus, doing mitzvot, keeping the Shabbat, eating Kosher, keeping the Holy Days, basically, being orthoprax, is the same emphasis as Judaism. As Mark Kinzer so aptly points out, It is Messianic that is the adjective and Judaism that is the noun. These are Jews doing Judaism who happen to believe in Mashiach--not really a whole lot different from the Chabadniks.

Quote: "make sure it is a definition that the everyone is going to agree with."

Lol.

No thanks. Maybe years from now.

Good night Open Heart.

 

[HARK!]

reliance on the Talmud, and dependence of Jewish identity upon Torah observance. Everyone in the world is going to agree with that, even those that might hem and haw and want to add other points.

I disagree; and so do the Karait Jews.

I don't rely on the Talmud. It's the commentary of men.

(CLV) Ro 3:4
May it not be coming to that! Now let God be true, yet every man a liar, even as it is written: "That so Thou shouldst be justified in Thy sayings, And shalt be conquering when Thou art being judged."

 

[Open Heart]

Quote: "make sure it is a definition that the everyone is going to agree with."

Lol.

No thanks. Maybe years from now.

Good night Open Heart.

You don't think you can come up with a definition of Judaism that will be fairly universal? Are you admitting that you have your own ideosyncratic made up Judaism that has no relationship to the real Judaism?