Are You A Sinner?

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 2:1-11 NLT
You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. [2] And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. [3] Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? [4] Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin? [5] But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. [6] He will judge everyone according to what they have done. [7] He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. [8] But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness. [9] There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. [10] But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. [11] For God does not show favoritism.

Notice how you quote a passage and then you stop close to the point where it condemns a sin and still be saved type belief.

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:12).

It says as many as have sinned without the Law have perished without the Law. We are without the Law of Moses, so we can also perish with the Law of Moses if we sin or break God's commands under the New Covenant. This is what it is saying. Also, Romans 2 says,

5 "...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil," (Romans 2:5-9).

So God will render to every man according to his deeds. God says that those who obey unrighteousness there will be wrath upon every soul that does evil. Yet, you are saying that you can do evil and yet not have wrath in the fact that you admit that you are a sinner and it's okay because you have a belief on Jesus. So what you believe does not match up with Scripture.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

Paul was writing to a specific people group and he was not wring to believers who did live faithfully.

Goodnight. Have a restful night and wonderful Sunday!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree their has to be change but it all doesn't happen at once and we will never not sin. We don't make a habit of sinning, but not completely sinless. I am not saying that I just sin all day and think that I am Saved just because I say a prayer or something. I don't want to sin and who I am today is a totally different person than I was and everyday I am moving closer to be more and more like Jesus, but I still sin. To not sin is impossible for me that is why I need Mercy. I need Jesus to wash me and cover me. Not to allow me to continue sinning, but to change me more and more to be like Him. In one sense I am not a sinner because I am not under the Law but under Grace, it is about my intention. To be perfect I would have to do everything selflessly. When Jesus told the rich man to be perfect he would have to sell everything he had and give it to the poor He was saying that to be perfect you need to do everything selflessly to be perfect, that is why Jesus is Perfect. Love is Selfless.

No. Paul is talking about not being under the Law of Moses.
You are under God's laws in regards to salvation.
These would be the commands in the New Covenant.
I can prove it to you right now.

Are you under this Law or Command?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

There are more laws that you have to keep that relate to our salvation. Paul is saying that it is not Law Alone (without God's grace) that saves or the Law of Moses but it is God's grace that we are initially and ultimately saved. But that does not mean we are free from keeping God's commands in relation to our salvation. For to say we are not under God's laws salvation wise to people is to say that we can commit the most vile sins and still be saved. There is no other way around this one. One is either saved by God's grace + nothing (Meaning they can commit vile sins and be saved), or they are saved by God's grace + obedience to God's commands.

In fact, Jesus even said that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17). Revelation 14:12 says the patience of the saints is to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 22:14-15 says,

14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

No. Paul is talking about not being under the Law of Moses. Do not deceive yourself.
You are under God's laws in regards to salvation.
I can prove it to you right now.

Are you under this Law or Command?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

There are more laws that you have to keep that relate to our salvation. Paul is saying that it is not Law Alone that saves or the Law of Moses but it is God's grace that we are initially and ultimately saved. But that does not mean we are free from keeping God's commands in relation to our salvation. For to say we are not under God's laws salvation wise to people is to say that we can commit the most vile sins and still be saved. There is no other way around this one. One is either saved by God's grace + nothing (Meaning they can commit vile sins and be saved), or they are saved by God's grace + obedience to God's commands.

In fact, Jesus even said that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17). Revelation 14:12 says the patience of the saints is to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 22:14-15 says,

14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without aredogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

What Paul is saying is God's works in us to change us into Jesus not the other way around. We can never live the Law, we are sinners. When we admit that we are sinners and realize that we need Jesus, then Jesus works in us to change us, we don't change ourselves, Jesus' changes us.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

No. Paul is talking about not being under the Law of Moses.
You are under God's laws in regards to salvation.
I can prove it to you right now.

Are you under this Law or Command?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

There are more laws that you have to keep that relate to our salvation. Paul is saying that it is not Law Alone (without God's grace) that saves or the Law of Moses but it is God's grace that we are initially and ultimately saved. But that does not mean we are free from keeping God's commands in relation to our salvation. For to say we are not under God's laws salvation wise to people is to say that we can commit the most vile sins and still be saved. There is no other way around this one. One is either saved by God's grace + nothing (Meaning they can commit vile sins and be saved), or they are saved by God's grace + obedience to God's commands.

In fact, Jesus even said that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17). Revelation 14:12 says the patience of the saints is to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 22:14-15 says,

14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Philippians 4:13 NLT
For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength.

1 Corinthians 15:10 NLT
But whatever I am now, it is all because God poured out his special favor on me—and not without results. For I have worked harder than any of the other apostles; yet it was not I but God who was working through me by his grace.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

No. Paul is talking about not being under the Law of Moses.
You are under God's laws in regards to salvation.
These would be the commands in the New Covenant.
I can prove it to you right now.

Are you under this Law or Command?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

There are more laws that you have to keep that relate to our salvation. Paul is saying that it is not Law Alone (without God's grace) that saves or the Law of Moses but it is God's grace that we are initially and ultimately saved. But that does not mean we are free from keeping God's commands in relation to our salvation. For to say we are not under God's laws salvation wise to people is to say that we can commit the most vile sins and still be saved. There is no other way around this one. One is either saved by God's grace + nothing (Meaning they can commit vile sins and be saved), or they are saved by God's grace + obedience to God's commands.

In fact, Jesus even said that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (See Matthew 19:17). Revelation 14:12 says the patience of the saints is to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 22:14-15 says,

14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Philippians 2:13 NLT
For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What Paul is saying is God's works in us to change us into Jesus not the other way around. We can never live the Law, we are sinners. When we admit that we are sinners and realize that we need Jesus, then Jesus works in us to change us, we don't change ourselves, Jesus' changes us.

I am fully aware that Jesus changes us. But we do have to cooperate with Jesus. He does not force us to be a certain way. We have to want to be holy. But if you say that you are a sinner, then you can never live holy in this life or be changed in any way. You will always be a sinner because that is what you want to call yourself. Your words fulfill your actions. You say you are a sinner, and that is what you are going to do. However, the wages of sin is death. God calls us to repent of our sins. This means we will seek forgiveness with God over our sins and that will lead us to overcome our sin. If one is still in their sins, that means they have not done the will of God. See the parable of the two sons (See Matthew 21:28-32).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Philippians 2:13 NLT
For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

Yes, I am fully aware of this verse.

Below you will find a more complete list of verses that say the same thing.

For who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism (if that is what you are thinking). I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Philippians 4:13 NLT
For I can do everything through Christ, who gives me strength.

You cannot do everything through Christ if you are also sinning. That is an oxymoron.

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

You cannot do everything through Christ if you are also sinning. That is an oxymoron.

Are you perfect?

 

[Love &Forgiveness]

The Pharisees "weighed" sins. When Jesus came he told them if you even lusted you committed adultery. If you even hated someone you murdered them. If you call your brother a fool you are subject to the fires of hell. He said they tithed their mint and dill but did not do the more important things of justice and mercy. That is why the teachers of law asked Jesus what is the Greatest commanded and then to justify themselves they asked who their neighbor was. Jesus replied that everyone is your neighbor. You need to love everyone, even your enemies. Love is the proof. Not knowledge.

 

[DamianWarS]

Interesting OP and really gets to the heart of who is righteous or Who is Righteous.

If one claims they are sinless then would that not mean they no longer sin here on earth in the flesh?

This is semantics. Christians are recipients of grace and inherit Christ's righteousness. I'm ok with the sinner saved by grace label even if it's argued as a misnomer it still reflects a genuine state regardless what I call it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Saint (earthly) is also a sinner.

That is not the point. If you tell people that everyone is a sinner and some are just forgiven, then leaves them to think things are just fine with God if they never do anything for Him or anyone else the rest of their lives because, after all, we are just sinners.

No one in the Bible says anything close to this. In his letters Paul refered to the saints in Christ, not the sinners in Christ. There is an accuser who prefers we focus on the sin instead of the call of God to be saints though.

 

[daydreamer40]

No one in the Bible says anything close to this. In his letters Paul refered to the saints in Christ, not the sinners in Christ. There is an accuser who prefers we focus on the sin instead of the call of God to be saints though.

And how is the accuser going to do that? By making you believe you have righteousness of observing the law/not committing sin

 

[daydreamer40]

In the same story of Adam and Eve, they sinned and felt shame, but look at the story of Cain and Abel. Cain killed his brother Abel but felt no shame. Cain listened to the devil, he got to be his own god and killed Abel, but he felt no shame. He didn't think he did anything wrong. He thought he didn't sin even though he murdered his brother.

Christians cannot convince themselves they do not sin when they do. For the law is in their minds and hearts

 

[Lost4words]

It's amazing how many non denom people we have who all claim that they know what is best. Sola scripturists who all have the correct interpretation of scripture.

I am out of this thread now. My head is hurting!

 

[daydreamer40]

Why does the Law give sin its power.

If I said to you, “If you think of a pink rabbit, God will condemn you to hell,” what is the first thing you will think of if you believe me? You would try desperately never to think of such a creature, wouldn’t you? You would become agitated at the thought of a pink rabbit. You would be, animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of the creature. You would end up in a frenzied state concerning it, I imagine. Now the more these emotions overcome you concerning the creature, the more the thought of the creature will overwhelm you; it will become irresistible. You see, however, as you know there is no penalty of condemnation in place if you think of a pink rabbit, you will not get worked up about it, will you? Paul states Romans 7:5-6:


For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. (NIV)



Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us when we live under it. For he goes on to say we die to the law − we have been released from the law (of righteousness) as Christians and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the written code (the law). Why does he say the law arouses sinful passions for those living under it?

Well, you see, the same emotions that would overcome you at the thought of a pink rabbit, if you believed such thoughts could condemn you, would also overcome you where sin is concerned if you live under the law. The penalty for sin is in place if you live under the law, isn’t it? Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin. You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. Now the more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state, friend. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore, your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you. That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And how is the accuser going to do that? By making you believe you have righteousness of observing the law/not committing sin

In over 40 years of following the Lord and working closely with Christians, I have never met anyone who thought they 100% followed the moral law. Never. I have never met a single Christian who thought they were righteous because they followed any law you care to mention. This is a straw man argument.

I have met many who thought they could behave any way they want and give in to any desire they had because they were going to Heaven and GOd does not see the evil they do others but only sees Jesus. They thought they were as righteous at one can be already and do not need to obey any law, moral or otherwise, but could do as whatever their hearts wanted thinking God was responsible to write his law on their hearts as they slept. So whatever they desired was his law. Without exception, their behaviour was not pleasing to God or man.

 

[daydreamer40]

In over 40 years of following the Lord and working closely with Christians, I have never met anyone who thought they 100% followed the moral law. Never. I have never met a single Christian who thought they were righteous because they followed any law you care to mention. This is a straw man argument.

I have met many who thought they could behave any way they want and give in to any desire they had because they were going to Heaven and GOd does not see the evil they do others but only sees Jesus. They thought they were as righteous at one can be already and do not need to obey any law, moral or otherwise, but could do as whatever their hearts wanted thinking God was responsible to write his law on their hearts as they slept. So whatever they desired was his law. Without exception, their behaviour was not pleasing to God or man.

And yet you insist Gal3:10&11 only concerns trying to be justified/righteous concerning non moral law.
Of course some abuse grace, they did in NT times(Jude4) but that did not stop the true message being preached did it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Romans 3:23
23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Nobody is without sin. Only Jesus was / is without sin. We have to keep struggling in this life against the evil one. Jesus is the way, the truth and the Life.

He gave us the 'Our Father' prayer. He knew we easily fall into sin. He gave us Apostolic succession, where we could go to a priest, just like the Apostles. They were given power to forgive, through Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You Catholic?

The Spirit of God is stronger than sin and when a believer wants to overcome a particular sin, it can be done. That is the freedom from sin that Jesus gave us.