Are You A Sinner?

[Bible Highlighter]

But you do believe justification hinges on law you ignore, and other law you often fail to obey. Stop deflecting

You are also deflecting. You are not explaining the verses I provided that says we can overcome sin.

 

[daydreamer40]

You are also deflecting. You are not explaining the verses I provided that says we can overcome sin.

Reread my initial post in this thread. As you obviously have not overcome much sin in your life(according to your views), you should agree with it

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But you do believe justification hinges on law you ignore, and other law you often fail to obey. Stop deflecting

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses as a whole or package deal. Paul is trying to also refute Law Alone Salvationism that does not include God’s grace. This is because he was fighting against “Circumcision Salvationism.”

See Romans 3:1, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2. Also, see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Reread my initial post in this thread. As you obviously have not overcome much sin in your life(according to your views), you should agree with it

No, that is your assumption. You need to produce a verse that specifically condemns my soul in the after life in relation to God's commands in the New Testament that I said that I break. Why can you not produce such a verse? Because it doesn't exist. You need to study more the topic of God's commands in the New Testament and treat them as applying to your life. The commands in the NT are not suggestions, they are commands. They are something that you must do. Also, you erroneously think that when Paul talks of the Law he is speaking of all Law in general when in reality, he was talking about the Law of Moses.

 

[daydreamer40]

No, that is your assumption. You have not studied deeply God’s commands in the New Testament to even know what they say. For you erroneously think that Paul talks of the Law he is speaking of all Law in general when in reality, he was talking about the Law of Moses.

I'm going to put you on ignore, this conversation is hardly stimulating. You are quoting the partial letter of scripture you cannot live up to in your own life. This of course was the problem of the Pharisees and Saduccees. Jesus reserved his harshest words for them. You will never understand the true message when you can only quote partially the letter itself. Again, the Pharisees of Jesus day could do that all day long. It is not studying per sae you need, but insight into the true message through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Those who demand of others what they do not demand of themselves might think they know much, but assuredly they do not.
Goodbye

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm going to put you on ignore, this conversation is hardly stimulating. You are quoting the partial letter of scripture you cannot live up to in your own life. This of course was the problem of the Pharisees and Saduccees. Jesus reserved his harshest words for them. You will never understand the true message when you can only quote partially the letter itself. Again, the Pharisees of Jesus day could do that all day long. It is not studying per sae you need, but insight into the true message through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Those who demand of others what they do not demand of themselves might think they know much, but assuredly they do not.
Goodbye

Sorry to see you you put me on ignore. I was merely trying to get you to see what God's Word says. You want to look at my life and everyone else's, but we walk by faith and not by sight. As I said before, God's Word is true regardless if nobody obeyed God. For only 8 people survived a global flood. God destroyed the rest of that world because it was wicked. If you were to read 2 Peter, you would learn that the global flood is an example to all who live ungodly.

As for the Pharisees:
Again, the Pharisees believed in "sonship salvation" like most churches today believe. They ignored God’s laws as a part of being right with the Lord (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42) just like you and others here want me to do. You just want me to believe in Jesus and not worry about sin.

In any event, may God's love shine upon you
(even if you may disagree strongly).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus says, he that is of God, hears (obeys) God’s words, you therefore hear them not because you are not of God (John 8:47).

 

[Lost4words]

Pretty much end of story. Saint focuses on pleasing God.

Saint (earthly) is also a sinner.

 

[Lost4words]

So if Scripture teaches this fact, then one is not having the right mindset on sin if they say they are still a sinner when they are a Christian. It's an oxymoron to state that fact in reference to one's present life as a believer.

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul is referring to law that could not perfectly be obeyed, obviously, which had to include moral law which is still around today

Not true. Paul said that if one breaks the Moral Law they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4). Obviously if Paul said we can break the Moral Law and still be saved, he would have disqualified himself by his own words in 1 Timothy 6:3-4. Again, if you were to look at the context of Paul's writings, he mentions "Circumcision Salavtionism" as being the problem. See Romans 3:1, Galatians 3:2, Galatians 5:2. Also see Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree, talk is cheap, anyone can say you must obey all of Christ's commands to show you love him, however, the reality does not allways match up to the words

So you think it is impossible? Jesus says with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. I believe Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm afraid it is true, Gal3:10&11&James2:10

The context of Galatians 3:10 is the Law of Moses (or Law Alone Salvationism), and not the laws or commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers after we are saved by God's grace.

Galatians 2:3 talks about those who were trying to compel believers to be circumcised in order to be saved. Obviously circumcision is a part of the Old Law only and if one were to believe that circumcision is how we initially get right with God, then that is trying to be justified by Law Alone (Which is something I am strongly against - Just like Paul is).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm afraid it is true, Gal3:10&11&James2:10

James 2:10 is in regards to not loving your neighbor. This is a command that applies to us under the New Covenant. If I were to have respect of persons by having favor over rich brethren while ignoring the poor brethren (showing them a lower favor), then I have broke all of God's laws by not loving my neighbor (or not loving the brethren). If I were to do this, I would be condemned unless I were to repent (or seek God's forgiveness). However, by the grace of God, I am fortunate to have not have shown respect of persons in regards to believers like this (Thereby breaking the 2nd greatest commandment).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 1:8
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But if your interpretation is true, we then have many contradictory verses in Scripture. For the Bible talks about overcoming sin in this life:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).​

For how do you explain these verses?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

it's allways the same I am afraid. People come on the internet, telling you, justification/righteousness hinges on obeying the ten commandments (or nine for many) obeying Christ's commands, and even for some, all NT commands.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).​

Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).​

When people are then put under the spotlight concerning their words, they have to backtrack concerning their own particular life. One of the worst sins(in my view) is asking of others what you do not ask of yourself

The spotlight should be God's Word and not ourselves. We are limited in knowledge and we are constantly learning and growing in God's Word. Things that you think condemns us in God's Word really do not condemn us. You see all sin as being the same, when it is not that way (See 1 John 5:16-17). So you see obedience to Christ's commands as being impossible in regards to one being upright with God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see no point in continuing this. Let us leave it to others to decide about our conversation:

The measure you use to judge others, will be used to judge you Matt7:2

I strive to primarily judge your belief here and not you. I apologize if it may appear like you I may have offended you in any way at some point. I do really love you in Christ Jesus. But you do have to realize that you are seeking to put me in the spotlight so as to condemn me by saying I broke God's laws that deal with salvation (from my perspective). I asked you to show me the verses of where you think I broke God's laws (that deal with salvation), but you have not produced such a verse.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems you are now backtracking, in your personal life according to what you have previously written. And I am not judging you, your stated beliefs judge you

Please show me where I have backtracked whereby Scripture condemns me.
Oh wait, you put me on ignore, that's right.

Anyways, peace, and blessings to you in the Lord.
I pray that you will one day see where I am coming from.

 

[Lost4words]

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

Lol. No answer from you!

 

[Lost4words]

Romans 3:23
23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Nobody is without sin. Only Jesus was / is without sin. We have to keep struggling in this life against the evil one. Jesus is the way, the truth and the Life.

He gave us the 'Our Father' prayer. He knew we easily fall into sin. He gave us Apostolic succession, where we could go to a priest, just like the Apostles. They were given power to forgive, through Our Lord Jesus Christ.