Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

Doug Brents

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The above poster has insinuated that my understanding of the scripture is Satanic.
This is a lie, sir.

At no time did I say anything in reference to you or your message being linked with Satan or the Satanic. You repeatedly used the word “supernal” in your comments contrasting it with the physical, and the flesh.

But supernal is not the opposite of the flesh. On the contrary, it is related to the flesh. Supernal having to do with the sky, space, stars, and other heavenly bodies.

I was challenging your use of a word, and pointing out that the word you used was being improperly applied. Not in any way accusing you of teaching a Satanic message.
 
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daq

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This is a lie, sir.

At no time did I say anything in reference to you or your message being linked with Satan or the Satanic. You repeatedly used the word “supernal” in your comments contrasting it with the physical, and the flesh.

But supernal is not the opposite of the flesh. On the contrary, it is related to the flesh. Supernal having to do with the sky, space, stars, and other heavenly bodies.

I was challenging your use of a word, and pointing out that the word you used was being improperly applied. Not in any way accusing you of teaching a Satanic message.

The record is there for anyone to read. You based your false insinuation on a faulty understanding of a single word, supernal, even after I have stated what I mean when I use that word by quoting the scripture, (of above, Colossians 3:2, highlighted in the post which I will quote below this paragraph). And after your insinuation I even posted multiple dictionary entries showing that my understanding of that word is the proper understanding of that word according to widely available online dictionaries. Your strawman invention of what I mean when I use that word is what is the falsehood here: not my speaking the truth about your false insinuation.

I already know what supernal means.
Colossians 3:2-10 ASV
2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.
3 For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.
5 Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry;
6 for which things' sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience:
7 wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things;
8 but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth:
9 lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings,
10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The KJV uses mortify in these two passages: mortify the deeds of the body, and mortify your members which are upon (concerning) the earth (of below by the context, cf. Col 3:2, highlighted above). Paul is teaching everything I have said and have been trying to tell you: but you have your own interpretation of his words which allows you to cancel a large portion of the Word of Elohim. Putting to death your members, or mortifying your members, is Paul's way of teaching the same thing the Master teaches in the Gospel accounts when he says that if your hand or foot offend you, (scandalize or cause you to stumble), cut them off and cast them from you.
 
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Doug Brents

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The record is there for anyone to read. You based your false insinuation on a faulty understanding of a single word, supernal, even after I have stated what I mean when I use that word by quoting the scripture, (of above, Colossians 3:2, highlighted in the post which I will quote below this paragraph). And after your insinuation I even posted multiple dictionary entries showing that my understanding of that word is the proper understanding of that word according to widely available online dictionaries. Your strawman invention of what I mean when I use that word is what is the falsehood here: not my speaking the truth about your false insinuation.
In Col 3;2, “things above” does not mean celestial (supernal) things. It means Godly things. So again, your usage was erroneous. If your intention was to refer to “things above” then say that.

But we are way off the topic of this thread. If you care to pick up the topic, have at it. If not, then go in peace.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The sabbath is indeed eternal, but as has been pointed out before, what the sabbath is has changed from the Old Covenant to the New (Heb 4). The rest of God is not constrained to the 7th day any more.
These are God's Word.

Deut 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

We are not allowed to add or subtract to God's commandments. In doing so comes with a warning Proverbs 30:5-6. God's words are pure and needs no edits- there is no scripture that says we can change any of God's commandments- to think one can improve on what God made PERFECT Psalms 19:7 and is TRUTH Psalms 119:151 and is RIGHTEOUS Psalms 119:172 and reflects the very unchanging character of God is really only deceiving oneself.

Hebrews 4 reminds us of Sabbath-keeping for God's people.

Hebrews 4:9
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

God said this about the Sabbath that we cannot edit. Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. Which is the same day God rested from His works and we must also to enter in to His rest. Hebrews 4:4 Hebrews 4:10

Hebrews 4 warns us for those who are disobedient like who it was first preached who broke the Sabbath and did not enter into the land of Caanan. Hebrews 4:6, Ezekiel 20:13, Ezekiel 20:21 and we are reminded not to follow the same path of disobedience Hebrews 4:11 which Isaiah 56 also reminds of us.

Again, you say this as if it means more than any other of God’s words how ever they were delivered. It does not. There are many things from the Old Covenant that have been changed in the New Covenant: the High Priest, the method and place of worship, the sacrifice, the way we draw close to God, and many other things.

What changed in the New Covenant according to scripture is Jesus became our High Priest so that law changed. Hebrews 7:12, the sacrifice for sins changed because Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification when we repent from our sins and turn from sin, so we no longer sacrifice animals Hebrews 4:1-10 Colossians 2:14. Sin is defined the same as it was from the beginning, even in the New Covenant- breaking Gods law 1 John 3:4, and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to point out sin Romans 7:7 which we break one you break them all James 2:10-12 and the commandments of God cannot be edited in any way Deut 4:2

Y you oh keep referring to this passage as if it means something that it does not. It is not saying that sabbath will still be a day of rest. It is simply saying that from month to month and week to week, we will worship the Lord.
Why are you omitting the Sabbath- when scripture is not. Yes, from week to week on the SABBATH all the saints will gather around Jesus to worship Isaiah 66:23 because the Sabbath is God's holy day Isaiah 58:13 and the only day God blessed or sanctified. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11. What God has blessed man cannot reverse Numbers 23:20 and to be honest I am not sure why man tries so hard to do this.
Indeed we are to keep God’s commandments, but we need only concern ourselves with the ones that are relevant to us in our day.
Scripture please

Instead we have for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 and the saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12
We do not have to worry about not eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; that command is not relevant to us.
Man lost the privilege to eat from the Tree of Life when Adam and Eve sinned (break God's law). Eating from the Tree of Life is not one of the Ten Commandments and if you think breaking God's commandments will restore you back to the tree of Life you might want to read Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 7:21-13, Hebrews 10:26-30 Matthew 5:19
We do not need to worry about the command to sacrifice our children; that command was only to Abraham. We do not need to concern ourselves with keeping the 7th day; that command was only to the physical descendants of Abraham, during and after the time of Moses, up until the death of Christ.
We are not God so do not get to decide what we are to keep or not keep and a command to Abraham that has do with his son, is not the same as God's Ten Commandments that we should all keep through faith and love. Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 22:14
Again, you change what Scripture says. It does not say we are a dwelling place for His temple. It says we (our bodies) are His temple.
I could have phrased that better our bodies are a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19 which is why we need to keep them clean both spiritually and physically. The Spirit enable us to obey from those who want to John 14:15-18 and is given to those who obey, Acts 5:32 God's law in our hearts and minds because in the Most Holy of God's Temple where He dwells is His Ten Commandments written personally by God Exodus 31:18 that He wants in our hearts and minds and dwells in us so we can keep His law.
If we are required to keep the sabbath (as they were in the Old Covenant)
If Jesus expected His people to keep the Sabbath long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20, and we see examples of the disciples keeping the Sabbath decades after the cross "every Sabbath" Acts 13:44, Acts 13:42, Acts 18:4 Luke 23:20, Acts 13:14 and Jesus commanded His disciples to keep everything He observed, Jesus observed the Sabbath Luke 4:16 and kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments as our example to follow and we see the Sabbath continuing in heaven Isaiah 66:23- do you think Jesus is confused about His Father's covenant? Jesus came do to His Father's will John 6:38- God will is His law in our hearts Psalms 40:8 which is what God wrote in His New Covenant His laws Hebrews 8:10 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that God identified as His commandments right in the Ten Exodus 20:6. This argument is with the Text.
then the breaking of the sabbath is sin, and thus would prevent our salvation if we were continually living in this unrepentant sin (just as we would if we were thieves, homosexuals, liars, or any of the other sins listed in 1 Cor 6:9-11 and other places.
Yes, breaking any of God's commandments is a sin. 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7 The fact the Ten Commandments is written all throughout the New Covenant and Bible means they are applicable for everyday Christian living. We cannot edit one word from God's commandments- we cannot add or subtract Deut 4:2 they can in a unit of Ten that God placed together by His own works. Exodus 32:16 we break one of these commandments we break them all James 2:10-12. Too many people think their works and their righteous is going to save them, but we are to depend on God's works Exodus 32:16 and His righteousness Psalm 119:137 and ALL of God's commandments are righteousness Psalms 119:172 and ALL of God's commandments are TRUTH Psalms 119:151. There are lots of warnings in scriptures for those who do not practice Truth. God commandments reflect His unchanging character, which is why it is His commandments are eternal Revelation 11:19 Do you think God's personally written law that is kept in God's Temple in the Most holies of holy can be profaned? This is a great deception and why Lucifer was kicked out of heaven 1 John 3:8 and follow his path is not going to unite us with God eternally.

But among those lists, sabbath keeping is never listed, and is expressly noted as being personal choice based on personal belief in Rom 14.
Romans 14 says nothing about the Sabbath commandment and if one would allow the bible to interpret itself, it would make that clear. We cannot impose our will on God's will, He tells us in advance, so we believe. God's will for us is that we keep His law in our hearts and obey Him through love and faith. Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 8:10, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12. Revelation 22:14-15 The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11 that God blessed and made holy for Him and for man. The Sabbath continues on forever Isaiah 66:23 but God loves us so much He will never force anyone against their will.

Anyway, I will most likely bow out of this thread because our words are not God's words and our opinions are not equal to God's words and I see too many opinions that are not supported by scripture or taken out of context. I wish you well in seeking Truth in His Word.
 
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Doug Brents

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These are God's Word.

Deut 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

We are not allowed to add or subtract to God's commandments. In doing so comes with a warning Proverbs 30:5-6. God's words are pure and needs no edits- there is no scripture that says we can change any of God's commandments- to think one can improve on what God made PERFECT Psalms 19:7 and is TRUTH Psalms 119:151 and is RIGHTEOUS Psalms 119:172 and reflects the very unchanging character of God is really only deceiving oneself.
God CAN make changes to His law! You are correct, we are not allowed to change His law, but He can. And He told us that He did, many times. The fact that you refuse to see it is the issue.
Hebrews 4 reminds us of Sabbath-keeping for God's people.

Hebrews 4:9
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.
Yes, there remains a rest, a sabbath rest, and it is in Christ, and TODAY is the day to enter that rest (of you read the rest of that passage in context).
σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

God said this about the Sabbath that we cannot edit. Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. Which is the same day God rested from His works and we must also to enter in to His rest. Hebrews 4:4 Hebrews 4:10

Hebrews 4 warns us for those who are disobedient like who it was first preached who broke the Sabbath and did not enter into the land of Caanan. Hebrews 4:6, Ezekiel 20:13, Ezekiel 20:21 and we are reminded not to follow the same path of disobedience Hebrews 4:11 which Isaiah 56 also reminds of us.
While the Israelites’ sin may have included breaking the sabbath, that was not the primary sin that kept them from entering the promised land. And it is disobedience to Christ (not the Law) that we are told in Heb 4 to obey.
What changed in the New Covenant according to scripture is Jesus became our High Priest so that law changed. Hebrews 7:12, the sacrifice for sins changed because Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification when we repent from our sins and turn from sin, so we no longer sacrifice animals Hebrews 4:1-10 Colossians 2:14. Sin is defined the same as it was from the beginning, even in the New Covenant- breaking Gods law 1 John 3:4, and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to point out sin Romans 7:7 which we break one you break them all James 2:10-12 and the commandments of God cannot be edited in any way Deut 4:2
Cannot be edited by man.
But if you continue down a little past Romans 7:7 to Rom 8:2-3 (part of the same thought), we are told that what the Law of Moses could not do, (because it was weak through the flesh), God did in sending Christ (thus, the New Covenant).
Why are you omitting the Sabbath- when scripture is not. Yes, from week to week on the SABBATH all the saints will gather around Jesus to worship Isaiah 66:23 because the Sabbath is God's holy day Isaiah 58:13 and the only day God blessed or sanctified. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11. What God has blessed man cannot reverse Numbers 23:20 and to be honest I am not sure why man tries so hard to do this.
Again, God can and did.
Man lost the privilege to eat from the Tree of Life when Adam and Eve sinned (break God's law). Eating from the Tree of Life is not one of the Ten Commandments and if you think breaking God's commandments will restore you back to the tree of Life you might want to read Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 7:21-13, Hebrews 10:26-30 Matthew 5:19
I didn’t say the tree of Life. I said the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
We are not God so do not get to decide what we are to keep or not keep and a command to Abraham that has do with his son, is not the same as God's Ten Commandments that we should all keep through faith and love. Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 22:14
An example of a commandment from within the Old Covenant that we are not bound to today (it is a weak point, true, but valid nonetheless).
I could have phrased that better our bodies are a Temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19 which is why we need to keep them clean both spiritually and physically.

If Jesus expected His people to keep the Sabbath long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20,
Keeping the sabbath was a tradition that the Jews still kept long after the Old Covenant was fulfilled. But as Jesus said, it os ok to do good on the sabbath, saving a life, healing, pulling an ox out of a hole, etc. So it would have been an inconvenience for them (they wouldn’t be prepared to flee as they might be on a work day), but fleeing on a sabbath would not be a sin, under the Old or New Covenant.
and we see examples of the disciples keeping the Sabbath decades after the cross "every Sabbath" Acts 13:44, Acts 13:42, Acts 18:4 Luke 23:20, Acts 13:14
Yes, and this is because they were going to where people were already gathered to teach and learn about God.
and Jesus commanded His disciples to keep everything He observed, Jesus observed the Sabbath Luke 4:16 and kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments as our example to follow and we see the Sabbath continuing in heaven Isaiah 66:23- do you think Jesus is confused about His Father's covenant? Jesus came do to His Father's will John 6:38- God will is His law in our hearts Psalms 40:8 which is what God wrote in His New Covenant His laws Hebrews 8:10 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that God identified as His commandments right in the Ten Exodus 20:6. This argument is with the Text.
Again, show me the commandment to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant. Even an allusion to it, like keep your words pure could be an allude to not taking the Lord’s name in vain. But it is not there in New Testament Scripture.


Romans 14 says nothing about the Sabbath commandment and if one would allow the bible to interpret itself, it would make that clear.
Indeed it is clear. Neither the sabbath, nor dietary restrictions are part of God’s law in the New Covenant. Those who believe that they are a commandment are to keep them, as commandments, to God. Those of us who know they are not commandments do not keep them, also to God. And both are honored by God.

Anyway, I will most likely bow out of this thread because our words are not God's words and our opinions are not equal to God's words and I see too many opinions that are not supported by scripture or taken out of context. I wish you well in seeking Truth in His Word.
I agree, too many opinions that are not backed up with Scripture accurately taken in context. When you come to the truth, come back and we can talk more.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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God CAN make changes to His law! You are correct, we are not allowed to change His law, but He can. And He told us that He did, many times. The fact that you refuse to see it is the issue.
Where did God make changes to the Sabbath commandment? Where does it say by God alone- since He wrote His commandments alone Exodus 32:16, Exodus 31:18 that we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment or that it was transferred to another day. Where does it say any other day but the seventh day Sabbath is sanctified, holy and blessed by God? I have yet to have anyone provide scripture for this.
Yes, there remains a rest, a sabbath rest, and it is in Christ, and TODAY is the day to enter that rest (of you read the rest of that passage in context).

The correct scripture says TODAY if you hear His voice- do not harden your hearts to rebellion. Here is the scripture....

Hebrews 4: 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Which the writer for Hebrews is quoting David:


Hebrews 95: 7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,


Those who were disobedient were cut off from the inheritance. Hebrews 3:15-19. In order for us to enter into our gospel rest we must follow the same example of God who rested from all of His works on the seventh day Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3 Hebrews 4:10

The Sabbath-rest remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9


While the Israelites’ sin may have included breaking the sabbath, that was not the primary sin that kept them from entering the promised land. And it is disobedience to Christ (not the Law) that we are told in Heb 4 to obey.
I am only going off what the scripture says, :)

Ezekiel 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness.

Which is why we are warned not to follow the same path of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree and it will all get sorted out soon enough.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I agree, too many opinions that are not backed up with Scripture accurately taken in context. When you come to the truth, come back and we can talk more.
All of God's commandments are Truth

You are near, O Lord, And all Your commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

1 John 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
 
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Doug Brents

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Where did God make changes to the Sabbath commandment?
Where, in scripture does god say that He laid aside the Levitical priesthood? But we know that He did, because Jesus is now our High Priest, and He could not be a priest of any kind, if we were still under the Old Covenant, because children of the tribe of Judah could not be priests, only Levites.

Based on that alone, we know that the Old Covenant has been set aside, fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, and a New Covenant has been established. The only thing that remains for us to determine is what are the requirements of the New Covenant.

To determine what the requirements of the New Covenant are, we must look only at the New Covenant for its instructions. Only those things in the Old covenant that are specifically mentioned as being part of the New Covenant are brought forward and made part of the New Covenant. Just a reference to keeping “the commandments of God“ does not qualify as enumerating which of the commandment of God constitute the requirements of the new covenant.
The correct scripture says TODAY if you hear His voice- do not harden your hearts to rebellion and disobedience. You are inserting your words into the scripture, which is not God's Words.

Hebrews 4: 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”


Which the writer for Hebrews is quoting David:
Again, not my words. You are skipping over the first half of Heb 4:7 along with verses 6 & 8.
“Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

He (God) again sets a certain day; what day? TODAY! For He speaks of another day (a different day).

Hebrews 95: 7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,


Nothing about the Sabbath now being today- these are your words, not God's Words.

The Sabbath-rest remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9
Yes, a sabbath rest. And what is that rest according to verse 10-11?
“For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.”
What rest? God’s rest. And who entered this rest? Jesus. And when did He enter this rest? On Thursday when He died? Or on Saturday night/Sunday morning when He arose? (Saturday night (after sundown) would have been after the sabbath ended. So when should we imitate Jesus and enter God’s rest? Heb 4:7 says: TODAY!

I am only going off what the scripture says, you can argue with that. :)

Ezekiel 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness.

Which is why we are warned not to follow the same path of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Agreed, we must not fall into the same pattern of disobedience to God’s commands as they pertain to us today. But we are not subject to the same laws as they were.
Looks like we will have to agree to disagree and it will all get sorted out soon enough.
I find it interesting how many people who are on the wrong side of disagreements want to use the cop-out “let’s agree to disagree”. If this truly were a Spiritual issue, then we should fight tooth and nail to prove the case of God against any and all opposition. But since, as I have already said many times, this is a case of personal conviction, we can let it rest. For God said, “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats onlyvegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.”
 
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Doug Brents

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All of God's commandments are Truth

You are near, O Lord, And all Your commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

1 John 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
So when was the last time you sacrificed a bull, or a goat, or a lamb, or a dove, or grain, or wine, or oil on the alter in the Temple in Jerusalem?

When was the last time you brought your peace offering, or your path offering, or any of the other offerings commanded by God to the Levites?

When was the last time you went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover, or any of the other festivals commanded to be celebrated in Jerusalem?

You see, it is not the Law of God to which you so desperately cling, it is to this one day.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So when was the last time you sacrificed a bull, or a goat, or a lamb, or a dove, or grain, or wine, or oil on the alter in the Temple in Jerusalem?

When was the last time you brought your peace offering, or your path offering, or any of the other offerings commanded by God to the Levites?

When was the last time you went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover, or any of the other festivals commanded to be celebrated in Jerusalem?

You see, it is not the Law of God to which you so desperately cling, it is to this one day.

First of all, where are these in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20.

We no longer sacrifice animals because Jesus became our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and the scripture tells us. Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10:1-10. Sin is still defined as breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

I am pretty sure this has been addressed a few times.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I

Where, in scripture does god say that He laid aside the Levitical priesthood? But we know that He did, because Jesus is now our High Priest, and He could not be a priest of any kind, if we were still under the Old Covenant, because children of the tribe of Judah could not be priests, only Levites.

Based on that alone, we know that the Old Covenant has been set aside, fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, and a New Covenant has been established. The only thing that remains for us to determine is what are the requirements of the New Covenant.

To determine what the requirements of the New Covenant are, we must look only at the New Covenant for its instructions. Only those things in the Old covenant that are specifically mentioned as being part of the New Covenant are brought forward and made part of the New Covenant. Just a reference to keeping “the commandments of God“ does not qualify as enumerating which of the commandment of God constitute the requirements of the new covenant.

Again, not my words. You are skipping over the first half of Heb 4:7 along with verses 6 & 8.
“Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

He (God) again sets a certain day; what day? TODAY! For He speaks of another day (a different day).


Yes, a sabbath rest. And what is that rest according to verse 10-11?
“For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.”
What rest? God’s rest. And who entered this rest? Jesus. And when did He enter this rest? On Thursday when He died? Or on Saturday night/Sunday morning when He arose? (Saturday night (after sundown) would have been after the sabbath ended. So when should we imitate Jesus and enter God’s rest? Heb 4:7 says: TODAY!


Agreed, we must not fall into the same pattern of disobedience to God’s commands as they pertain to us today. But we are not subject to the same laws as they were.

I find it interesting how many people who are on the wrong side of disagreements want to use the cop-out “let’s agree to disagree”. If this truly were a Spiritual issue, then we should fight tooth and nail to prove the case of God against any and all opposition. But since, as I have already said many times, this is a case of personal conviction, we can let it rest. For God said, “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats onlyvegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.”
Ok Doug, I hope it works out for you. I could go over this again, but I don't think it would help. Take care.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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@Doug Brents

So if the Sabbath is no longer the seventh day, the day God deemed the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but instead according to you in now "today"

Did the apostles just forget to update the scriptures correctly and we should delete the Sabbath in these verses and update it with your version instead today? Thats sure a whole lot of editing...

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.


Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.


Acts 13:27
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.

Acts 13:42
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2
Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

And Jesus too must not have received your interpretation when He indicated the Sabbath would be kept decades after He ascended back to heaven

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;


Matthew 24: 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

And Jesus forgot to say today we will gather to worship in heaven and new earth instead of the Sabbath Isaiah 66:23 , must have been another error in scripture.

Luckily, for those who wish to follow God's Word, no edits are necessary and we are warned of doing so. Proverbs 30:5-6 for these exact reasons, because our words are not God's Word and if we are not following God's Word we are not following God.
 
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Doug Brents

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First of all, where are these in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20.

We no longer sacrifice animals because Jesus became our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and the scripture tells us. Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10:1-10. Sin is still defined as breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

I am pretty sure this has been addressed a few times.
Indeed these are not in the Ten commandments, but the 10 are not a stand-alone group. They are the first part, the synopsis, of the whole Law of Moses. When the Law was set aside in its entirety, the first 10 were set aside with them, as has been shown many times already.
 
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Doug Brents

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So if the Sabbath is no longer the seventh day, the day God deemed the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but instead according to you in now "today"

Did the apostles just forget to update the scriptures correctly and we should delete the Sabbath in these verses and update it with your version instead today? Thats sure a whole lot of editing...
Where is the commandment in any of the following passages? There isn’t one. This is a description of events. And why did the Apostles and other ministers in the first century go to the synagogues on sabbath? Because that is when they would find a ready audience. That is when people would be gathered together to learn about God, so that is when they showed up to teach about God.
Common sense. They are not teaching a command.

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.


Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.


Acts 13:27
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.

Acts 13:42
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2
Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

And Jesus too must not have received your interpretation when He indicated the Sabbath would be kept decades after He ascended back to heaven

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;


Matthew 24: 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

And Jesus forgot to say today we will gather to worship in heaven and new earth instead of the Sabbath Isaiah 66:23 , must have been another error in scripture.

Luckily, for those who wish to follow God's Word, no edits are necessary and we are warned of doing so. Proverbs 30:5-6 for these exact reasons, because our words are not God's Word and if we are not following God's Word we are not following God.
Very true, no edits are necessary for those who follow God’s Word, because He said the Old Covenant (along with the Law and the Prophets) was completed and made obsolete in Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Indeed these are not in the Ten commandments, but the 10 are not a stand-alone group.

Yes they are. Exodus 34:28, Deut 4:13, Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16 Only the Ten God wrote alone, only the Ten are inside the ark of the covenant in God's Most Holy of His Temple and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12.
They are the first part, the synopsis, of the whole Law of Moses. When the Law was set aside in its entirety, the first 10 were set aside with them, as has been shown many times already.

Not according to God's Word which is why God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting them and there are way too many references to God's Ten Commandments in the bible both Old and New Testament which is all of God's Word for you to make this case.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Where is the commandment in any of the following passages? There isn’t one. This is a description of events. And why did the Apostles and other ministers in the first century go to the synagogues on sabbath? Because that is when they would find a ready audience. That is when people would be gathered together to learn about God, so that is when they showed up to teach about God.
Common sense.
You said the Sabbath was "today" so why weren't the apostles teaching this instead of keeping the Sabbath like the scripture shows, decades after Jesus rose, preaching every Sabbath to Jews Gentiles and whole cities the Word of God. If the Sabbath was no longer the Sabbath it would simply say on the seventh day. God said this about the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath God can't get any clearer than this. Which is why almost every old language Saturday literally translates into the Sabbath.
They are not teaching a command.
They were obeying the commandments and Paul reminds us what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 and points right to the Ten Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7
Very true, no edits are necessary for those who follow God’s Word, because He said the Old Covenant (along with the Law and the Prophets) was completed and made obsolete in Christ.
But this is not Old Covenant, this is decades after the cross. How much scripture has to be deleted to make this work for you. First the whole Old Testament, now every scripture that says keeping the commandments of God in the NT, a lot of the teaching of Jesus who taught directly from the Ten Commandments, teachings of Paul, James, John, Matthew, all the Sabbath scripture over 50 verses NT, not much left to go by.
 
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Doug Brents

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Yes they are. Exodus 34:28, Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16 Only the Ten God wrote alone, only the Ten are inside the ark of the covenant in God's Most Holy of His Temple.
That is irrelevant. They were part of the Law that came from Sinai, which is the slave woman in the allegory, which was to be driven out because her sons would not be heirs with the free woman’s sons.
Not according to God's Word which is why God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting them and there are way too many references to God's Ten Commandments in the bible both Old and New Testament which is all of God's Word for you to make this case.
Nine of the 10 commandments are restated in the New Covenant, and several times many of them are referenced as a group (in order even), but the fourth (sabbath keeping) is never among any of the lists. The Old Covenant remains God’s Word, but the commands in it are no longer binding on New Testament Christians because God made it obsolete.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That is irrelevant. They were part of the Law that came from Sinai, which is the slave woman in the allegory, which was to be driven out because her sons would not be heirs with the free woman’s sons.

Nine of the 10 commandments are restated in the New Covenant, and several times many of them are referenced as a group (in order even), but the fourth (sabbath keeping) is never among any of the lists. The Old Covenant remains God’s Word, but the commands in it are no longer binding on New Testament Christians because God made it obsolete.
We must be reading a different bible because the Sabbath is written over 50 times throughout the New Testament, so certainly not deleted. God did not "delete" the one commandment He said "Remember" and uses the words blessed and holy. God placed together Ten Commandments, not nine and His Word cannot be edited. 9 commandments is not a teaching of God's Word- The Ten Commandments are in God's holy Temple Revelation 11:19 the earthy temple was an EXACT replica of God's heavenly Temple and nowhere does it say there was nine commandments, I am officially signing out of this thread as I don't see us coming to any agreement. I wish you well in seeking His Word. Take care.
 
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Doug Brents

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You said the Sabbath was "today" so why weren't the apostles teaching this instead of keeping the Sabbath like the scripture shows, decades after Jesus rose, preaching every Sabbath to Jews Gentiles and whole cities the Word of God. If the Sabbath was no longer the Sabbath it would simply say on the seventh day. God said this about the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath God can't get any clearer than this. Which is why almost every old language Saturday literally translates into the Sabbath.

They were obeying the commandments and Paul reminds us what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 and points right to the Ten Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7

But this is not Old Covenant, this is decades after the cross. How much scripture has to be deleted to make this work for you. First the whole Old Testament, now every scripture that says keeping the commandments of God in the NT, a lot of the teaching of Jesus who taught directly from the Ten Commandments, teachings of Paul, James, John, Matthew, all the Sabbath scripture over 50 verses NT, not much left to go by.
I find it sad that you cannot distinguish between a statement of an event and a command. The COMMAND to keep the Sabbath does not exist in the New Testament. The word “sabbath” is there many times, but the command is not there. None of the mentions of the sabbath need to be deleted, because not a single one of them is a command to keep it.
 
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The discussion in this thread has been an interesting one. I find that, as usual, positions are not subject to change but are in fact set in rock.

No one will admit to their errors and believe me there are errors on both sides of the discussion.

These discussions need not go beyond one or two responses as the apostle Paul advised:

Titus 3:
10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

No need to waste more than the time recommended, as persons are able to see very early, whether or not one is willing to learn or only intends to teach what they believe.

For example:

Scripture clearly tell us that physical circumcision is not a requirement of the new covenant:

Galatians 5:
6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

So there should be no discussion about whether or not physical circumcision was to be observed in the new covenant, Paul had this to say about the actual practice:

Galatians 2:
3But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

But how can anyone even contemplate circumcision to be more important or more highly regarded than the Sabbath by God.

The same reasons in fact, would make it more highly regarded, than any of the other commands in the ten also. So if this is one of the reasons for dismissing the Sabbath, then it could be used to dismiss the nine which are accepted as part of the new covenant and especially the third command which is not repeated in the scriptures of the apostles.

The fact is that, the Sabbath along with the ten, received very special treatment by God.

They were the only commands spoken by God to the people of Israel and were a complete package, as it is said, at the completion, he spoke no more. He also wrote them on two tables of stone, not once, but twice. The second tables were then placed in the ark of the covenant. (Deuteronomy 5:4,22;10:1-5;Exodus 32:19;34:1-4,28)

How can anyone say they were not specially treated and remain a credible commentator?

The Lord Jesus was asked about eternal life and the encounter was instructive.

The young man asked:

Matthew 19:
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

The Lord’s answer:

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He being aware of the many commands in the law then asked:

18He saith unto him, Which?

Did Jesus list out every single command he should observe or did He show the young man the category or type of commands?

The Lord’s answer:

18Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother:
and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Again, a clear emphasis on the ten commandments. Nothing about circumcision. Could not be that important.

The apostle Paul also showed this inclination when he described a particular command as the first with a promise.

Ephesians 6:
1Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)

We should consider, of which group is this command, the first with a promise?

This statement implies Paul has the ten in mind and hence is endorsing the ten as being applicable to the Christian.

There is more, but these are hints of the continued validity of the ten in its entirety. Every single command does not have to be repeated for the continued relevance of the ten to be seen. It only takes a honest heart which is truly desiring to please the Almighty.

However the Lord in considering the cynics and those who may want to insist that the command must be repeated, left a witness which does declare Sabbath breaking, and also taking the Lords name in vain, as a sin and contrary to the gospel.

In I Timothy 1:8-11 is contained a much misunderstood passage of scripture. The apostle Paul in this passage describes persons who had committed certain sins. It is clear that Paul says those sins he mentioned were, "contrary to sound doctrine; according to the glorious gospel..."[I Timothy 1:10,11]

Hence these sins must not be found among Christians. Some are easily identified, but others need careful examination to discern the fault Paul is identifying. When this passage is fully understood, it will be seen that Paul is identifying persons who broke the ten commandments, up to commandment 9 and in the same order as they were given in Exodus 20.


THE LIST OF COMMANDMENT BREAKERS.​

Lawless - Anomos (Gr.),without law, not having, knowing or acknowledging the law. (Shows opposition to or contempt for the will of God.)
Disobedient - Anupotaktos(Gr.),disobedient to authority(God's)
Ungodly - Asebes(Gr.),Godless, without fear or reverence to God ,one who practices the opposite of what the fear of God demands.
Sinners - Hamartolos(Gr.),a heinous and habitual sinner.

The above persons do not recognize the true God and His laws but have gods of their own. They end up making images in honour of these gods and offer worship to them contrary to the commands of the true God.[See, Romans 1:18-25;Proverbs 16:27;Deuteronomy 13:13;II Corinthians 6:14-18;I Samuel 2:12;Galatians 4:8; N.B. ,ungodly - sons of belial]

The persons above break commandments 1 & 2


Unholy - Anosios(Gr.),opposite of holy, profane.
Profane - Bebelos(Gr.),unhallowed, opposite of sacred, permitted to be trodden.

The above persons disregard or desecrate that which is holy. They take the Lord's name in vain and pollute the Sabbath.[See, Leviticus 18:21;19:12;Matthew 12:5;Nehemiah 13:17;Isaiah 58:13;56:6]

The persons above break commandments 3 & 4.

The rest are fairly straightforward and self-explanatory.

Murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers - Dishonour parents by killing them.

The persons above break commandment 5.



Manslayers - Kill others.

The persons above break commandment 6.


Whoremongers etc. - Commit adultery and various sexual sins.

The persons above break commandment 7.


Men stealers - Steal or kidnap men.

The persons above break commandment 8.


Liars and perjured persons - These persons lie, bear false witness.

The persons above break commandment 9.


Any other thing contrary to sound doctrine would include commandment 10,which must be transgressed before any other sin is committed.[See, James 1:14,15;I Corinthians 10:6;Matthew 15:19]


Hence Paul clearly affirms that the breaking of the ten commandment law is a sin and describes those who disregard the Sabbath as unholy and profane. In this passage, Paul states plainly that it is contrary to sound Christian doctrine, contrary to the gospel, to be unholy and profane ie. to disregard the Sabbath.[I Timothy 1:10,11]

It is no coincidence that this list follows the ten commandments list as was given in Exodus 20. This is stating that Sabbath breaking is a sin as is taking the Lord’s name in vain according to the new covenant.

The treatment of the vision of Peter, in Acts chapter 10, is also indicative of someone, who wrests the scriptures to their own demise. Discussing the scriptures with such persons cannot be profitable.

The dream is clearly interpreted by Peter as referring to humans whom God had called to receive salvation. He said:

Acts 10:
28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Is it that all men are now to be considered clean? Peter helps us to understand to whom this applies:

Acts 10:
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

These are the persons whom God had cleansed and not every single person. Paul confirms this as he declares that persons who are unclean cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God

Hence unclean persons still exist today and to follow the so called rule about an analogy, then unclean animals still exist today as well. This is confirmed by the words of an angel.

Revelation 18:
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

The fact is that, the passage is entirely about salvation coming to the Gentiles, and has nothing to do with unclean animals.

If someone cannot see that, then it makes no sense having a discussion about the scriptures with them.

Sorry to be so negative but, I have been there and done that and I hate to see us waste our time. Just post your beliefs and understanding of scripture and move on. No need to discuss the beliefs or understanding of others nor entertain any questions about your beliefs. This will reduce the possibility for contention and would certainly be less stressful.

Or at least, choose carefully, who to have discussions with.
 
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