Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

[daq]

I am not trying to redeem myself in your eyes. I am posting so that others who read this may know that my usage was not incorrect.

The Jews in the time of Jesus had the concept of three “heavens”. The first Heaven was the air, where birds fly. The second Heaven was where the stars, moon, and sun exist; space. These are the “heavenly places” or “heavenly realms” (Eph 6:12, Eph 3:10). The third Heaven is where God is (2 Cor 12:2).

Satan is the lord (prince) of the air, and the ruler of all the powers of evil that are in the “heavenly places”. Thus anything supernal falls into Satan’s power.

Supernal does not mean supernatural, Godly, spiritual, or contrast with flesh as daq used it in his posts.

And I am posting this so that others who read this may understand what has happened here.

The above poster has insinuated that my understanding of the scripture is Satanic. He does not understand that testimony is spirit, and therefore we are admonished to test or try the spirits, and the only way to do this is to compare the testimony of someone with the scripture. The Master himself even says that his words are Spirit and they are Life, (John 6:63, which has been repeatedly referenced in discussion with this poster), proving by the very Testimony of the Master himself that testimony is indeed spirit: whether for the good or whether for the evil.

The prince of the power of the air is the same as the spirit of the world, which term Paul uses in 1Cor 2:12, in which passage he expounds what it means when it comes to the message which he and his companions preach. That surely means that the testimony of Paul is by the Holy Spirit even in his own thinking, which is abundantly clear in his epistles, and is true, and it is surely confirmed in other scripture passages outside the writings of Paul.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16 KJV
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Understand therefore, dear reader, think long and hard before you accuse someone of being Satanic because of what they believe from the scripture, and especially when they have a mountain of scripture to support what they say: for if they are indeed speaking the truth from the scripture, according to the real and intended meanings in the scripture in the things they speak, which is the Logos-Reasoning and Wisdom from on high, then they speak according to the Holy Spirit. If therefore you call them Satanic for what they speak in the Spirit of the heavenly Father, you will be blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Remember, testimony is spirit, and those who speak according to the flesh, the physical, and the eyes and mind of the natural man: the same are those who speak the prince of the power of the air and the spirit of the world. Guard your spirit, for the tongue is a little member boasting great things, and it is a fire, the world of iniquity among our members which defiles the whole body: and it sets aflame the generation cycle, (there are four generations in the first "age" of a man), and it is set aflame by Gehenna.

Matthew 12:22-45 KJV
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

 

[Doug Brents]

The above poster has insinuated that my understanding of the scripture is Satanic.

This is a lie, sir.

At no time did I say anything in reference to you or your message being linked with Satan or the Satanic. You repeatedly used the word “supernal” in your comments contrasting it with the physical, and the flesh.

But supernal is not the opposite of the flesh. On the contrary, it is related to the flesh. Supernal having to do with the sky, space, stars, and other heavenly bodies.

I was challenging your use of a word, and pointing out that the word you used was being improperly applied. Not in any way accusing you of teaching a Satanic message.

 

[daq]

This is a lie, sir.

At no time did I say anything in reference to you or your message being linked with Satan or the Satanic. You repeatedly used the word “supernal” in your comments contrasting it with the physical, and the flesh.

But supernal is not the opposite of the flesh. On the contrary, it is related to the flesh. Supernal having to do with the sky, space, stars, and other heavenly bodies.

I was challenging your use of a word, and pointing out that the word you used was being improperly applied. Not in any way accusing you of teaching a Satanic message.

The record is there for anyone to read. You based your false insinuation on a faulty understanding of a single word, supernal, even after I have stated what I mean when I use that word by quoting the scripture, (of above, Colossians 3:2, highlighted in the post which I will quote below this paragraph). And after your insinuation I even posted multiple dictionary entries showing that my understanding of that word is the proper understanding of that word according to widely available online dictionaries. Your strawman invention of what I mean when I use that word is what is the falsehood here: not my speaking the truth about your false insinuation.

I already know what supernal means.

Colossians 3:2-10 ASV
2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.
3 For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.
5 Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry;
6 for which things' sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience:
7 wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things;
8 but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth:
9 lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings,
10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:

The KJV uses mortify in these two passages: mortify the deeds of the body, and mortify your members which are upon (concerning) the earth (of below by the context, cf. Col 3:2, highlighted above). Paul is teaching everything I have said and have been trying to tell you: but you have your own interpretation of his words which allows you to cancel a large portion of the Word of Elohim. Putting to death your members, or mortifying your members, is Paul's way of teaching the same thing the Master teaches in the Gospel accounts when he says that if your hand or foot offend you, (scandalize or cause you to stumble), cut them off and cast them from you.

 

[Doug Brents]

The record is there for anyone to read. You based your false insinuation on a faulty understanding of a single word, supernal, even after I have stated what I mean when I use that word by quoting the scripture, (of above, Colossians 3:2, highlighted in the post which I will quote below this paragraph). And after your insinuation I even posted multiple dictionary entries showing that my understanding of that word is the proper understanding of that word according to widely available online dictionaries. Your strawman invention of what I mean when I use that word is what is the falsehood here: not my speaking the truth about your false insinuation.

In Col 3;2, “things above” does not mean celestial (supernal) things. It means Godly things. So again, your usage was erroneous. If your intention was to refer to “things above” then say that.

But we are way off the topic of this thread. If you care to pick up the topic, have at it. If not, then go in peace.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The sabbath is indeed eternal, but as has been pointed out before, what the sabbath is has changed from the Old Covenant to the New (Heb 4). The rest of God is not constrained to the 7th day any more.

These are God's Word.

Deut 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

We are not allowed to add or subtract to God's commandments. In doing so comes with a warning Proverbs 30:5-6. God's words are pure and needs no edits- there is no scripture that says we can change any of God's commandments- to think one can improve on what God made PERFECT Psalms 19:7 and is TRUTH Psalms 119:151 and is RIGHTEOUS Psalms 119:172 and reflects the very unchanging character of God is really only deceiving oneself.

Hebrews 4 reminds us of Sabbath-keeping for God's people.

Hebrews 4:9
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

Strong's Greek: 4520. σαββατισμός (sabbatismos) -- 1 Occurrence

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

God said this about the Sabbath that we cannot edit. Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. Which is the same day God rested from His works and we must also to enter in to His rest. Hebrews 4:4 Hebrews 4:10

Hebrews 4 warns us for those who are disobedient like who it was first preached who broke the Sabbath and did not enter into the land of Caanan. Hebrews 4:6, Ezekiel 20:13, Ezekiel 20:21 and we are reminded not to follow the same path of disobedience Hebrews 4:11 which Isaiah 56 also reminds of us.

Again, you say this as if it means more than any other of God’s words how ever they were delivered. It does not. There are many things from the Old Covenant that have been changed in the New Covenant: the High Priest, the method and place of worship, the sacrifice, the way we draw close to God, and many other things.

What changed in the New Covenant according to scripture is Jesus became our High Priest so that law changed. Hebrews 7:12, the sacrifice for sins changed because Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification when we repent from our sins and turn from sin, so we no longer sacrifice animals Hebrews 4:1-10 Colossians 2:14. Sin is defined the same as it was from the beginning, even in the New Covenant- breaking Gods law 1 John 3:4, and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to point out sin Romans 7:7 which we break one you break them all James 2:10-12 and the commandments of God cannot be edited in any way Deut 4:2

Y you oh keep referring to this passage as if it means something that it does not. It is not saying that sabbath will still be a day of rest. It is simply saying that from month to month and week to week, we will worship the Lord.

Why are you omitting the Sabbath- when scripture is not. Yes, from week to week on the SABBATH all the saints will gather around Jesus to worship Isaiah 66:23 because the Sabbath is God's holy day Isaiah 58:13 and the only day God blessed or sanctified. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11. What God has blessed man cannot reverse Numbers 23:20 and to be honest I am not sure why man tries so hard to do this.

Indeed we are to keep God’s commandments, but we need only concern ourselves with the ones that are relevant to us in our day.

Scripture please

Instead we have for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 and the saints keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12

We do not have to worry about not eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; that command is not relevant to us.

Man lost the privilege to eat from the Tree of Life when Adam and Eve sinned (break God's law). Eating from the Tree of Life is not one of the Ten Commandments and if you think breaking God's commandments will restore you back to the tree of Life you might want to read Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 7:21-13, Hebrews 10:26-30 Matthew 5:19

We do not need to worry about the command to sacrifice our children; that command was only to Abraham. We do not need to concern ourselves with keeping the 7th day; that command was only to the physical descendants of Abraham, during and after the time of Moses, up until the death of Christ.

We are not God so do not get to decide what we are to keep or not keep and a command to Abraham that has do with his son, is not the same as God's Ten Commandments that we should all keep through faith and love. Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 22:14

Again, you change what Scripture says. It does not say we are a dwelling place for His temple. It says we (our bodies) are His temple.

I could have phrased that better our bodies are a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19 which is why we need to keep them clean both spiritually and physically. The Spirit enable us to obey from those who want to John 14:15-18 and is given to those who obey, Acts 5:32 God's law in our hearts and minds because in the Most Holy of God's Temple where He dwells is His Ten Commandments written personally by God Exodus 31:18 that He wants in our hearts and minds and dwells in us so we can keep His law.

If we are required to keep the sabbath (as they were in the Old Covenant)

If Jesus expected His people to keep the Sabbath long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20, and we see examples of the disciples keeping the Sabbath decades after the cross "every Sabbath" Acts 13:44, Acts 13:42, Acts 18:4 Luke 23:20, Acts 13:14 and Jesus commanded His disciples to keep everything He observed, Jesus observed the Sabbath Luke 4:16 and kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments as our example to follow and we see the Sabbath continuing in heaven Isaiah 66:23- do you think Jesus is confused about His Father's covenant? Jesus came do to His Father's will John 6:38- God will is His law in our hearts Psalms 40:8 which is what God wrote in His New Covenant His laws Hebrews 8:10 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that God identified as His commandments right in the Ten Exodus 20:6. This argument is with the Text.

then the breaking of the sabbath is sin, and thus would prevent our salvation if we were continually living in this unrepentant sin (just as we would if we were thieves, homosexuals, liars, or any of the other sins listed in 1 Cor 6:9-11 and other places.

Yes, breaking any of God's commandments is a sin. 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7 The fact the Ten Commandments is written all throughout the New Covenant and Bible means they are applicable for everyday Christian living. We cannot edit one word from God's commandments- we cannot add or subtract Deut 4:2 they can in a unit of Ten that God placed together by His own works. Exodus 32:16 we break one of these commandments we break them all James 2:10-12. Too many people think their works and their righteous is going to save them, but we are to depend on God's works Exodus 32:16 and His righteousness Psalm 119:137 and ALL of God's commandments are righteousness Psalms 119:172 and ALL of God's commandments are TRUTH Psalms 119:151. There are lots of warnings in scriptures for those who do not practice Truth. God commandments reflect His unchanging character, which is why it is His commandments are eternal Revelation 11:19 Do you think God's personally written law that is kept in God's Temple in the Most holies of holy can be profaned? This is a great deception and why Lucifer was kicked out of heaven 1 John 3:8 and follow his path is not going to unite us with God eternally.

But among those lists, sabbath keeping is never listed, and is expressly noted as being personal choice based on personal belief in Rom 14.

Romans 14 says nothing about the Sabbath commandment and if one would allow the bible to interpret itself, it would make that clear. We cannot impose our will on God's will, He tells us in advance, so we believe. God's will for us is that we keep His law in our hearts and obey Him through love and faith. Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 8:10, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12. Revelation 22:14-15 The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11 that God blessed and made holy for Him and for man. The Sabbath continues on forever Isaiah 66:23 but God loves us so much He will never force anyone against their will.

Anyway, I will most likely bow out of this thread because our words are not God's words and our opinions are not equal to God's words and I see too many opinions that are not supported by scripture or taken out of context. I wish you well in seeking Truth in His Word.

 

[Doug Brents]

These are God's Word.

Deut 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

We are not allowed to add or subtract to God's commandments. In doing so comes with a warning Proverbs 30:5-6. God's words are pure and needs no edits- there is no scripture that says we can change any of God's commandments- to think one can improve on what God made PERFECT Psalms 19:7 and is TRUTH Psalms 119:151 and is RIGHTEOUS Psalms 119:172 and reflects the very unchanging character of God is really only deceiving oneself.

God CAN make changes to His law! You are correct, we are not allowed to change His law, but He can. And He told us that He did, many times. The fact that you refuse to see it is the issue.

Hebrews 4 reminds us of Sabbath-keeping for God's people.

Hebrews 4:9
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Rest here is sabbatismos which literally means keeping of the Sabbath. So this verse says there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.

Yes, there remains a rest, a sabbath rest, and it is in Christ, and TODAY is the day to enter that rest (of you read the rest of that passage in context).

σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

God said this about the Sabbath that we cannot edit. Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. Which is the same day God rested from His works and we must also to enter in to His rest. Hebrews 4:4 Hebrews 4:10

Hebrews 4 warns us for those who are disobedient like who it was first preached who broke the Sabbath and did not enter into the land of Caanan. Hebrews 4:6, Ezekiel 20:13, Ezekiel 20:21 and we are reminded not to follow the same path of disobedience Hebrews 4:11 which Isaiah 56 also reminds of us.

While the Israelites’ sin may have included breaking the sabbath, that was not the primary sin that kept them from entering the promised land. And it is disobedience to Christ (not the Law) that we are told in Heb 4 to obey.

What changed in the New Covenant according to scripture is Jesus became our High Priest so that law changed. Hebrews 7:12, the sacrifice for sins changed because Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sins and sanctification when we repent from our sins and turn from sin, so we no longer sacrifice animals Hebrews 4:1-10 Colossians 2:14. Sin is defined the same as it was from the beginning, even in the New Covenant- breaking Gods law 1 John 3:4, and Paul points right to the Ten Commandments to point out sin Romans 7:7 which we break one you break them all James 2:10-12 and the commandments of God cannot be edited in any way Deut 4:2

Cannot be edited by man.
But if you continue down a little past Romans 7:7 to Rom 8:2-3 (part of the same thought), we are told that what the Law of Moses could not do, (because it was weak through the flesh), God did in sending Christ (thus, the New Covenant).

Why are you omitting the Sabbath- when scripture is not. Yes, from week to week on the SABBATH all the saints will gather around Jesus to worship Isaiah 66:23 because the Sabbath is God's holy day Isaiah 58:13 and the only day God blessed or sanctified. Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11. What God has blessed man cannot reverse Numbers 23:20 and to be honest I am not sure why man tries so hard to do this.

Again, God can and did.

Man lost the privilege to eat from the Tree of Life when Adam and Eve sinned (break God's law). Eating from the Tree of Life is not one of the Ten Commandments and if you think breaking God's commandments will restore you back to the tree of Life you might want to read Revelation 22:14-15, Matthew 7:21-13, Hebrews 10:26-30 Matthew 5:19

I didn’t say the tree of Life. I said the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

We are not God so do not get to decide what we are to keep or not keep and a command to Abraham that has do with his son, is not the same as God's Ten Commandments that we should all keep through faith and love. Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 22:14

An example of a commandment from within the Old Covenant that we are not bound to today (it is a weak point, true, but valid nonetheless).

I could have phrased that better our bodies are a Temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19 which is why we need to keep them clean both spiritually and physically.

If Jesus expected His people to keep the Sabbath long after He ascended back to heaven Matthew 24:20,

Keeping the sabbath was a tradition that the Jews still kept long after the Old Covenant was fulfilled. But as Jesus said, it os ok to do good on the sabbath, saving a life, healing, pulling an ox out of a hole, etc. So it would have been an inconvenience for them (they wouldn’t be prepared to flee as they might be on a work day), but fleeing on a sabbath would not be a sin, under the Old or New Covenant.

and we see examples of the disciples keeping the Sabbath decades after the cross "every Sabbath" Acts 13:44, Acts 13:42, Acts 18:4 Luke 23:20, Acts 13:14

Yes, and this is because they were going to where people were already gathered to teach and learn about God.

and Jesus commanded His disciples to keep everything He observed, Jesus observed the Sabbath Luke 4:16 and kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments as our example to follow and we see the Sabbath continuing in heaven Isaiah 66:23- do you think Jesus is confused about His Father's covenant? Jesus came do to His Father's will John 6:38- God will is His law in our hearts Psalms 40:8 which is what God wrote in His New Covenant His laws Hebrews 8:10 which of course includes the Sabbath commandment that God identified as His commandments right in the Ten Exodus 20:6. This argument is with the Text.

Again, show me the commandment to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant. Even an allusion to it, like keep your words pure could be an allude to not taking the Lord’s name in vain. But it is not there in New Testament Scripture.

Romans 14 says nothing about the Sabbath commandment and if one would allow the bible to interpret itself, it would make that clear.

Indeed it is clear. Neither the sabbath, nor dietary restrictions are part of God’s law in the New Covenant. Those who believe that they are a commandment are to keep them, as commandments, to God. Those of us who know they are not commandments do not keep them, also to God. And both are honored by God.

Anyway, I will most likely bow out of this thread because our words are not God's words and our opinions are not equal to God's words and I see too many opinions that are not supported by scripture or taken out of context. I wish you well in seeking Truth in His Word.

I agree, too many opinions that are not backed up with Scripture accurately taken in context. When you come to the truth, come back and we can talk more.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God CAN make changes to His law! You are correct, we are not allowed to change His law, but He can. And He told us that He did, many times. The fact that you refuse to see it is the issue.

Where did God make changes to the Sabbath commandment? Where does it say by God alone- since He wrote His commandments alone Exodus 32:16, Exodus 31:18 that we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment or that it was transferred to another day. Where does it say any other day but the seventh day Sabbath is sanctified, holy and blessed by God? I have yet to have anyone provide scripture for this.

Yes, there remains a rest, a sabbath rest, and it is in Christ, and TODAY is the day to enter that rest (of you read the rest of that passage in context).

The correct scripture says TODAY if you hear His voice- do not harden your hearts to rebellion. Here is the scripture....

Hebrews 4: 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Which the writer for Hebrews is quoting David:

Hebrews 95: 7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,

Those who were disobedient were cut off from the inheritance. Hebrews 3:15-19. In order for us to enter into our gospel rest we must follow the same example of God who rested from all of His works on the seventh day Hebrews 4:4, Genesis 2:1-3 Hebrews 4:10

The Sabbath-rest remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9

While the Israelites’ sin may have included breaking the sabbath, that was not the primary sin that kept them from entering the promised land. And it is disobedience to Christ (not the Law) that we are told in Heb 4 to obey.

I am only going off what the scripture says,

Ezekiel 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness.

Which is why we are warned not to follow the same path of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree and it will all get sorted out soon enough.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree, too many opinions that are not backed up with Scripture accurately taken in context. When you come to the truth, come back and we can talk more.

All of God's commandments are Truth

You are near, O Lord, And all Your commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

1 John 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

 

[Doug Brents]

Where did God make changes to the Sabbath commandment?

Where, in scripture does god say that He laid aside the Levitical priesthood? But we know that He did, because Jesus is now our High Priest, and He could not be a priest of any kind, if we were still under the Old Covenant, because children of the tribe of Judah could not be priests, only Levites.

Based on that alone, we know that the Old Covenant has been set aside, fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, and a New Covenant has been established. The only thing that remains for us to determine is what are the requirements of the New Covenant.

To determine what the requirements of the New Covenant are, we must look only at the New Covenant for its instructions. Only those things in the Old covenant that are specifically mentioned as being part of the New Covenant are brought forward and made part of the New Covenant. Just a reference to keeping “the commandments of God“ does not qualify as enumerating which of the commandment of God constitute the requirements of the new covenant.

The correct scripture says TODAY if you hear His voice- do not harden your hearts to rebellion and disobedience. You are inserting your words into the scripture, which is not God's Words.

Hebrews 4: 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Which the writer for Hebrews is quoting David:

Again, not my words. You are skipping over the first half of Heb 4:7 along with verses 6 & 8.
“Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.”
He (God) again sets a certain day; what day? TODAY! For He speaks of another day (a different day).

Hebrews 95: 7 For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.
Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,

Nothing about the Sabbath now being today- these are your words, not God's Words.

The Sabbath-rest remains for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9

Yes, a sabbath rest. And what is that rest according to verse 10-11?
“For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.”
What rest? God’s rest. And who entered this rest? Jesus. And when did He enter this rest? On Thursday when He died? Or on Saturday night/Sunday morning when He arose? (Saturday night (after sundown) would have been after the sabbath ended. So when should we imitate Jesus and enter God’s rest? Heb 4:7 says: TODAY!

I am only going off what the scripture says, you can argue with that.

Ezekiel 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Ezekiel 20:21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness.

Which is why we are warned not to follow the same path of disobedience.

Hebrews 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Agreed, we must not fall into the same pattern of disobedience to God’s commands as they pertain to us today. But we are not subject to the same laws as they were.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree and it will all get sorted out soon enough.

I find it interesting how many people who are on the wrong side of disagreements want to use the cop-out “let’s agree to disagree”. If this truly were a Spiritual issue, then we should fight tooth and nail to prove the case of God against any and all opposition. But since, as I have already said many times, this is a case of personal conviction, we can let it rest. For God said, “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats onlyvegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.”

 

[Doug Brents]

All of God's commandments are Truth

You are near, O Lord, And all Your commandments are truth. Psalms 119:151

1 John 2: 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

So when was the last time you sacrificed a bull, or a goat, or a lamb, or a dove, or grain, or wine, or oil on the alter in the Temple in Jerusalem?

When was the last time you brought your peace offering, or your path offering, or any of the other offerings commanded by God to the Levites?

When was the last time you went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover, or any of the other festivals commanded to be celebrated in Jerusalem?

You see, it is not the Law of God to which you so desperately cling, it is to this one day.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So when was the last time you sacrificed a bull, or a goat, or a lamb, or a dove, or grain, or wine, or oil on the alter in the Temple in Jerusalem?

When was the last time you brought your peace offering, or your path offering, or any of the other offerings commanded by God to the Levites?

When was the last time you went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover, or any of the other festivals commanded to be celebrated in Jerusalem?

You see, it is not the Law of God to which you so desperately cling, it is to this one day.

First of all, where are these in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20.

We no longer sacrifice animals because Jesus became our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and the scripture tells us. Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10:1-10. Sin is still defined as breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

I am pretty sure this has been addressed a few times.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I

Where, in scripture does god say that He laid aside the Levitical priesthood? But we know that He did, because Jesus is now our High Priest, and He could not be a priest of any kind, if we were still under the Old Covenant, because children of the tribe of Judah could not be priests, only Levites.

Based on that alone, we know that the Old Covenant has been set aside, fulfilled, completed, made obsolete, and a New Covenant has been established. The only thing that remains for us to determine is what are the requirements of the New Covenant.

To determine what the requirements of the New Covenant are, we must look only at the New Covenant for its instructions. Only those things in the Old covenant that are specifically mentioned as being part of the New Covenant are brought forward and made part of the New Covenant. Just a reference to keeping “the commandments of God“ does not qualify as enumerating which of the commandment of God constitute the requirements of the new covenant.

Again, not my words. You are skipping over the first half of Heb 4:7 along with verses 6 & 8.
“Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.”
He (God) again sets a certain day; what day? TODAY! For He speaks of another day (a different day).


Yes, a sabbath rest. And what is that rest according to verse 10-11?
“For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.”
What rest? God’s rest. And who entered this rest? Jesus. And when did He enter this rest? On Thursday when He died? Or on Saturday night/Sunday morning when He arose? (Saturday night (after sundown) would have been after the sabbath ended. So when should we imitate Jesus and enter God’s rest? Heb 4:7 says: TODAY!


Agreed, we must not fall into the same pattern of disobedience to God’s commands as they pertain to us today. But we are not subject to the same laws as they were.

I find it interesting how many people who are on the wrong side of disagreements want to use the cop-out “let’s agree to disagree”. If this truly were a Spiritual issue, then we should fight tooth and nail to prove the case of God against any and all opposition. But since, as I have already said many times, this is a case of personal conviction, we can let it rest. For God said, “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats onlyvegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:

“As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.”

Ok Doug, I hope it works out for you. I could go over this again, but I don't think it would help. Take care.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@Doug Brents

So if the Sabbath is no longer the seventh day, the day God deemed the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but instead according to you in now "today"

Did the apostles just forget to update the scriptures correctly and we should delete the Sabbath in these verses and update it with your version instead today? Thats sure a whole lot of editing...

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.


Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.


Acts 13:27
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.

Acts 13:42
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2
Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

And Jesus too must not have received your interpretation when He indicated the Sabbath would be kept decades after He ascended back to heaven

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;


Matthew 24: 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

And Jesus forgot to say today we will gather to worship in heaven and new earth instead of the Sabbath Isaiah 66:23 , must have been another error in scripture.

Luckily, for those who wish to follow God's Word, no edits are necessary and we are warned of doing so. Proverbs 30:5-6 for these exact reasons, because our words are not God's Word and if we are not following God's Word we are not following God.

 

[Doug Brents]

First of all, where are these in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20.

We no longer sacrifice animals because Jesus became our sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and the scripture tells us. Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10:1-10. Sin is still defined as breaking God's law 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

I am pretty sure this has been addressed a few times.

Indeed these are not in the Ten commandments, but the 10 are not a stand-alone group. They are the first part, the synopsis, of the whole Law of Moses. When the Law was set aside in its entirety, the first 10 were set aside with them, as has been shown many times already.

 

[Doug Brents]

So if the Sabbath is no longer the seventh day, the day God deemed the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but instead according to you in now "today"

Did the apostles just forget to update the scriptures correctly and we should delete the Sabbath in these verses and update it with your version instead today? Thats sure a whole lot of editing...

Where is the commandment in any of the following passages? There isn’t one. This is a description of events. And why did the Apostles and other ministers in the first century go to the synagogues on sabbath? Because that is when they would find a ready audience. That is when people would be gathered together to learn about God, so that is when they showed up to teach about God.
Common sense. They are not teaching a command.

Acts 13:14
But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.


Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.


Acts 13:27
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.

Acts 13:42
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21
For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13
And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2
Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

And Jesus too must not have received your interpretation when He indicated the Sabbath would be kept decades after He ascended back to heaven

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;


Matthew 24: 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

And Jesus forgot to say today we will gather to worship in heaven and new earth instead of the Sabbath Isaiah 66:23 , must have been another error in scripture.

Luckily, for those who wish to follow God's Word, no edits are necessary and we are warned of doing so. Proverbs 30:5-6 for these exact reasons, because our words are not God's Word and if we are not following God's Word we are not following God.

Very true, no edits are necessary for those who follow God’s Word, because He said the Old Covenant (along with the Law and the Prophets) was completed and made obsolete in Christ.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Indeed these are not in the Ten commandments, but the 10 are not a stand-alone group.

Yes they are. Exodus 34:28, Deut 4:13, Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16 Only the Ten God wrote alone, only the Ten are inside the ark of the covenant in God's Most Holy of His Temple and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12.

They are the first part, the synopsis, of the whole Law of Moses. When the Law was set aside in its entirety, the first 10 were set aside with them, as has been shown many times already.

Not according to God's Word which is why God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting them and there are way too many references to God's Ten Commandments in the bible both Old and New Testament which is all of God's Word for you to make this case.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Where is the commandment in any of the following passages? There isn’t one. This is a description of events. And why did the Apostles and other ministers in the first century go to the synagogues on sabbath? Because that is when they would find a ready audience. That is when people would be gathered together to learn about God, so that is when they showed up to teach about God.
Common sense.

You said the Sabbath was "today" so why weren't the apostles teaching this instead of keeping the Sabbath like the scripture shows, decades after Jesus rose, preaching every Sabbath to Jews Gentiles and whole cities the Word of God. If the Sabbath was no longer the Sabbath it would simply say on the seventh day. God said this about the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath God can't get any clearer than this. Which is why almost every old language Saturday literally translates into the Sabbath.

They are not teaching a command.

They were obeying the commandments and Paul reminds us what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 and points right to the Ten Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7

Very true, no edits are necessary for those who follow God’s Word, because He said the Old Covenant (along with the Law and the Prophets) was completed and made obsolete in Christ.

But this is not Old Covenant, this is decades after the cross. How much scripture has to be deleted to make this work for you. First the whole Old Testament, now every scripture that says keeping the commandments of God in the NT, a lot of the teaching of Jesus who taught directly from the Ten Commandments, teachings of Paul, James, John, Matthew, all the Sabbath scripture over 50 verses NT, not much left to go by.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes they are. Exodus 34:28, Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:16 Only the Ten God wrote alone, only the Ten are inside the ark of the covenant in God's Most Holy of His Temple.

That is irrelevant. They were part of the Law that came from Sinai, which is the slave woman in the allegory, which was to be driven out because her sons would not be heirs with the free woman’s sons.

Not according to God's Word which is why God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 instead of deleting them and there are way too many references to God's Ten Commandments in the bible both Old and New Testament which is all of God's Word for you to make this case.

Nine of the 10 commandments are restated in the New Covenant, and several times many of them are referenced as a group (in order even), but the fourth (sabbath keeping) is never among any of the lists. The Old Covenant remains God’s Word, but the commands in it are no longer binding on New Testament Christians because God made it obsolete.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That is irrelevant. They were part of the Law that came from Sinai, which is the slave woman in the allegory, which was to be driven out because her sons would not be heirs with the free woman’s sons.

Nine of the 10 commandments are restated in the New Covenant, and several times many of them are referenced as a group (in order even), but the fourth (sabbath keeping) is never among any of the lists. The Old Covenant remains God’s Word, but the commands in it are no longer binding on New Testament Christians because God made it obsolete.

We must be reading a different bible because the Sabbath is written over 50 times throughout the New Testament, so certainly not deleted. God did not "delete" the one commandment He said "Remember" and uses the words blessed and holy. God placed together Ten Commandments, not nine and His Word cannot be edited. 9 commandments is not a teaching of God's Word- The Ten Commandments are in God's holy Temple Revelation 11:19 the earthy temple was an EXACT replica of God's heavenly Temple and nowhere does it say there was nine commandments, I am officially signing out of this thread as I don't see us coming to any agreement. I wish you well in seeking His Word. Take care.

 

[Doug Brents]

You said the Sabbath was "today" so why weren't the apostles teaching this instead of keeping the Sabbath like the scripture shows, decades after Jesus rose, preaching every Sabbath to Jews Gentiles and whole cities the Word of God. If the Sabbath was no longer the Sabbath it would simply say on the seventh day. God said this about the Sabbath Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath God can't get any clearer than this. Which is why almost every old language Saturday literally translates into the Sabbath.

They were obeying the commandments and Paul reminds us what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19 and points right to the Ten Commandments to define sin. Romans 7:7

But this is not Old Covenant, this is decades after the cross. How much scripture has to be deleted to make this work for you. First the whole Old Testament, now every scripture that says keeping the commandments of God in the NT, a lot of the teaching of Jesus who taught directly from the Ten Commandments, teachings of Paul, James, John, Matthew, all the Sabbath scripture over 50 verses NT, not much left to go by.

I find it sad that you cannot distinguish between a statement of an event and a command. The COMMAND to keep the Sabbath does not exist in the New Testament. The word “sabbath” is there many times, but the command is not there. None of the mentions of the sabbath need to be deleted, because not a single one of them is a command to keep it.