Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no such thing as New Testament Commands, nor Old Testament Commands, they are all God's commands, and none can be done away with, as the Spirit has said through Christ: for Christ did not come to do away with the law, but to magnify the law, e.g., to be a murderer under Christ's administration of God's laws, requires only that you hate your brother; and to be an adulterer requires only that you look with lust, etc.

Moreover, circumcision, which is not through what God gave Moses, but is of our forefathers, is also magnified under Christ's administration of God's laws, in that, in Christ, carnal circumcision has become spiritual circumcision, thus the prophecy is fulfilled, and circumcision is now magnified, for it is now the heart that is cut.

To imagine that God's commands are done away with, is like imagining that the carpet on your floors is all that lies underneath your feet.

You must be sure to make the distinction between God's law, and the administration of His laws. God's laws were kept by Abraham through the administration of Melchisedec, but the administration of Sinai is the administration of death, which administration came through the Levitical Priesthood, Moses calling for recompense, his brethren responding with the sword, killing their own brothers: it is by these same men, the sons of Levi, that this administration of God's law was performed til the payment of Christ: and it is this administration that requires compensation for any and all transgressions of the law, but under the administration of grace, which is the administration of Christ, all transgressions are already paid for, and all intercession is free, and complete, resulting in an empowerment that allows all who believe access to achieve what was once impossible under the previous administration.

The old administration of Levi is no more, but the ancient administration of Melchisedec, which is an eternal administration of God's will, is now in Christ, Who is after the ancient order of Melchisedec, which order is that of those who are born of God, who need not the threat of stoning to keep the Sabbath, but the love of God, as their Father, like Melchisedec, like Christ, like any who are truly born again.

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Check out the verses within the following spoiler button:


Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

I believe the Law that Jesus came to fulfill was the bringing in of the NT Law (Which works in harmony first with His grace and mercy along with the gospel, i.e. believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation). I believe no man can obey first without God's grace or forgiveness.

 

[Religiot]

You are off a bit. Being saved into good works doesn’t mean that works are part of what keeps you saved. See my previous post on what Paul had to say.

We work because we are saved. We want to. It’s part of our new nature. But it contributes nothing to our salvation.

What does it mean to keep the faith?

 

[Hammster]

What does it mean to keep the faith?

If you are referring to 2 Timothy 4:7, Paul never wavered in his faith.

 

[Religiot]

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Check out the verses within the following spoiler button:


Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

I believe the Law that Jesus came to fulfill was the bringing in of the NT Law (Which works in harmony first with His grace and mercy along with the gospel, i.e. believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation). I believe no man can obey first without God's grace or forgiveness.

You merely added to my list of examples... All of your examples serve to further prove the point I made...

Mercy is a weightier part of the law, hence the mercy of Joseph makes him a just man. (A man of justice is a just man.)

Part of God's justice is mercy, otherwise, the mercy He's had on us would make Him unjust.

I think the following will reconcile our differences:

The law is not changed to another, but transferred to another: the change that occurred is not in the law itself, but in the covenant of the law.

Hebrews 7:11-12

Strong's:
3331 metathesis met-ath'-es-is from 3346; transposition, i.e. transferral

3346 metatithemi met-at-ith'-ay-mee from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn. see GREEK for 3326 see GREEK for 5087

Some Ancient Translations:

"translatio" --E. Jerome, Heb 7:12 (L. Vulgate) [c.405]
"trans-lacioun" --J. Wycliffe, Heb 7:12 (Wycliffe B.) [c.1395]
"translated" --W. Tyndale, Heb 7:12(Tyndale B.) [1525/1530]
"traspasamiento" --C. de Reina, Heb 7:12 (B. del Oso) [1569]

Some definitions:

Translation /Trans·la´tion/, n. [F. translation, L. translatio a transferring, translation, version. See Translate, and cf. Tralation.] 1. The act of translating, removing, or transferring; removal; also, the state of being translated or removed; as, the translation of Enoch; the translation of a bishop. --Websters Unabridged [1913]

TRANSLA'TION, n. [L. translatio.] 1. The act of removing or conveying from one place to another; removal; as the translation of a disease from the foot to the breast. 2. The removal of a bishop from one See tid=53948 another. 3. The removal of a person to heaven without subjecting him to death. 4. The act of turning into another language; interpretation; as the translation of Virgil or Homer. 5. That which is produced by turning into another language; a version. We have a good translation of the Scriptures. --Websters [1828]

Translation, n. a removal, change, version. --Websters [1806]

The removal of the law from Levi, to Christ, is the change that occurred, the result of which is now a version of the law on the flesh of hearts, instead of tables of stone, no more to be cold and by death, but to be warm, and by love.

 

[Religiot]

If you are referring to 2 Timothy 4:7, Paul never wavered in his faith.

No, I wasn't asking, nor thinking about Paul... ...I was just simply asking you, 'what does it mean to keep the faith?'

 

[Hammster]

No, I wasn't asking, nor thinking about Paul... ...I was just simply asking you, 'what does it mean to keep the faith?'

Then I need some sort of reference where scripture talks about keeping the faith.

 

[Religiot]

Then I need some sort of reference where scripture talks about keeping the faith.

Brother, if you must, then go ahead and tell me what Paul meant when he said that he kept the faith.

 

[Hammster]

Brother, if you must, then go ahead and tell me what Paul meant when he said that he kept the faith.

I did. What do you mean by the phrase, and what’s your reference? Or did you, perhaps, look it up and discover it’s not found anywhere else?

 

[Religiot]

I did. What do you mean by the phrase, and what’s your reference? Or did you, perhaps, look it up and discover it’s not found anywhere else?

I didn't look anything up, lol, man I'm just still waiting for what you think it means to keep the faith, lol. ...Wow, I did not imagine that this would be such a trick question... If you don't know, then just say so, man.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't look anything up, lol, man I'm just still waiting for what you think it means to keep the faith, lol. ...Wow, I did not imagine that this would be such a trick question... If you don't know, then just say so, man.

I told you when you asked me. And gave you the reference.

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

 

[FredVB]

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

These are all present in saved people, being essential, but not operating the same for salvation. Any of us are saved because of Yahweh God's grace, it is accomplished still through God's work, through Christ, and being enabled, we realize our life of sin separating us from God and repent, responding with faith for restoration to God with faith, through Christ who makes it possible. God foreknew those who are his this way, so they are elected to be destined to be conformed to the image of Christ, fully separated from the sin that they were subject to before in their life. We then should be growing, spiritually, which happens with those in Christ, to show spiritual fruit, with our works, which themselves do nothing for saving us, but show to assure us we are in Christ and saved. Only the saved persist.

 

[SeamusDelion]

I lol the unqualified SDA and Catholics who vote here.

 

[JulieB67]

We are saved by grace through our faith and belief in Christ. Repentance it to have a true change of heart. A new way of thinking.

When we fall short as we all do, then we have our advocate in Christ who will cleanse us from that sin.

As for works, if you truly have faith, the works will come.

 

[FredVB]

We are saved by grace through our faith and belief in Christ. Repentance it to have a true change of heart. A new way of thinking.

When we fall short as we all do, then we have our advocate in Christ who will cleanse us from that sin.

As for works, if you truly have faith, the works will come.

This is well put. It is definitely God's grace. We must come to faith, and Christ came and made it possible, that we come to repentance, and faith is not merely assent to things to believe, but response to God and the love and things done from Christ, for us, that is life changing. We do not have to know all these parts to salvation as we come to it, but we would see it is life changing that is evidence for us. Love is really essential in this. There must be love of God, who provides so much for us, and we are not loving God without loving others, who are creatures of God's creation. Love and compassion are not to remain as they are with limitation, but are to grow, without us limiting them, as we grow spiritual fruit with which there are the spiritual works, showing the change in life that is evidence of salvation in Christ, in which there is eternal life God has given us who come to that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

These are all present in saved people, being essential, but not operating the same for salvation. Any of us are saved because of Yahweh God's grace, it is accomplished still through God's work, through Christ, and being enabled, we realize our life of sin separating us from God and repent, responding with faith for restoration to God with faith, through Christ who makes it possible. God foreknew those who are his this way, so they are elected to be destined to be conformed to the image of Christ, fully separated from the sin that they were subject to before in their life. We then should be growing, spiritually, which happens with those in Christ, to show spiritual fruit, with our works, which themselves do nothing for saving us, but show to assure us we are in Christ and saved. Only the saved persist.

This is a contradictory belief. You hold to a belief that creates a backdoor that says that “works of faith” will always be evident of a saving faith (belief in Christ), but the “works of faith” in and of themselves do not save. However, if “works of faith” will always follow a saving faith (belief), then “works of faith” are a necessary component of salvation. To say that “works of faith” do not save is to say that they are not necessary whatsoever and a Christian can be fruitless or unprofitable in this life and still be saved. But we learn in Matthew 25:30 that the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Yet, the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter the joy of their Lord (Matthew 25:21). Paul says that one of the marks or indicators of vain deceivers is that they can deny God by being reprobate of every good work (Titus 1:16). This lets us know that we do need to have works to show that we know God who is salvation. No good works in our life means we are not saved. So works play a part in the salvation equation.

First, Paul mentions this thing called the “work of faith” in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. This means that the “work of faith” is a part of the “faith.” For do you not agree that we need to have faith in order to access the saving grace of God? (Ephesians 2:8). So the work of faith is just another way of saying “faith.” It's the other side of the coin of faith. The first side of faith is a belief and trust in Christ, and the second side of faith is the “work of faith.” For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). Your view tries to attempt the separate the word “work” from the words “of faith.” For example: You would say that the work of an auto mechanic is unrelated to the knowledge and trust in being an auto mechanic. But both are tied together. They breath in harmony together in being a successful or normal auto mechanic.

Second, Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. So we gain our faith from hearing the Holy Bible. When I hear the words of the Holy Bible, I get faith. But faith does not stop with just a one time acceptance of hearing the gospel message alone. There are other words in the Bible that I must have faith in, as well. A person can accept the words that teach the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but if they reject say... the Trinity in 1 John 5:7 KJB that says, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” then they are rejecting the portion of the faith (i.e. the Bible). Can a person reject the Trinity and be saved? I don't believe they can because we are told to worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Anyways, my point here is that if the Bible teaches that we must be fruitful by having good works, and we must live holy lives, and the Bible is a part of the faith, then these things are a necessary component of salvation. For we are saved by God's grace THROUGH faith (Ephesians 2:8). For without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). But if a Christian says that works and holy living is not necessary as a part of salvation, they are saying that these things are not a part of the faith. They are saying that this is not the kind of faith we must have to access the saving grace of God. But the whole Bible. All of it. We must believe the whole Bible as a part of the faith (Note: Yes, I do believe the New Covenant or New Testament has primarily replaced the Old Covenant or Old Testament; But this does not mean there are not useful and beneficial things in the Old Testament).

Like most Christians, you appear to be coming from the belief that Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5 is referring to even the “work of faith” when in reality it is referring to condemning the false belief that we are saved by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace).

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Anyways, the idea is that if a person thought circumcision is what initially saved them instead of faith in Christ, then they would be making a Law or works the basis of their salvation instead of faith in Jesus Christ and His grace. This is what Paul was fighting against when he wrote Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etc.

For Paul condemns “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace) in Ephesians 2:9 because it is a Man Directed Work in that the fact that a person would boast in themselves by doing it.

However, Paul does allude to briefly to the necessity of the “work of faith” that must follow after we are saved by God's grace in Ephesians 2:10. For we are created unto Christ Jesus to do this kind of work and we are told that we SHOULD walk in these kinds of good works.

 

[FredVB]

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

These are all present in saved people, being essential, but not operating the same for salvation. Any of us are saved because of Yahweh God's grace, it is accomplished still through God's work, through Christ, and being enabled, we realize our life of sin separating us from God and repent, responding with faith for restoration to God with faith, through Christ who makes it possible. God foreknew those who are his this way, so they are elected to be destined to be conformed to the image of Christ, fully separated from the sin that they were subject to before in their life. We then should be growing, spiritually, which happens with those in Christ, to show spiritual fruit, with our works, which themselves do nothing for saving us, but show to assure us we are in Christ and saved. Only the saved persist.

It is definitely God's grace. We must come to faith, and Christ came and made it possible, that we come to repentance, and faith is not merely assent to things to believe, but response to God and the love and things done from Christ, for us, that is life changing. We do not have to know all these parts to salvation as we come to it, but we would see it is life changing that is evidence for us. Love is really essential in this. There must be love of God, who provides so much for us, and we are not loving God without loving others, who are creatures of God's creation. Love and compassion are not to remain as they are with limitation, but are to grow, without us limiting them, as we grow spiritual fruit with which there are the spiritual works, showing the change in life that is evidence of salvation in Christ, in which there is eternal life God has given us who come to that.

This is a contradictory belief. You hold to a belief that creates a backdoor that says that “works of faith” will always be evident of a saving faith (belief in Christ), but the “works of faith” in and of themselves do not save. However, if “works of faith” will always follow a saving faith (belief), then “works of faith” are a necessary component of salvation. To say that “works of faith” do not save is to say that they are not necessary whatsoever and a Christian can be fruitless or unprofitable in this life and still be saved. But we learn in Matthew 25:30 that the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Yet, the servant who was faithful over a few things was told to enter the joy of their Lord (Matthew 25:21). Paul says that one of the marks or indicators of vain deceivers is that they can deny God by being reprobate of every good work (Titus 1:16). This lets us know that we do need to have works to show that we know God who is salvation. No good works in our life means we are not saved. So works play a part in the salvation equation.

First, Paul mentions this thing called the “work of faith” in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. This means that the “work of faith” is a part of the “faith.” For do you not agree that we need to have faith in order to access the saving grace of God? (Ephesians 2:8). So the work of faith is just another way of saying “faith.” It's the other side of the coin of faith. The first side of faith is a belief and trust in Christ, and the second side of faith is the “work of faith.” For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). For we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). Your view tries to attempt the separate the word “work” from the words “of faith.” For example: You would say that the work of an auto mechanic is unrelated to the knowledge and trust in being an auto mechanic. But both are tied together. They breath in harmony together in being a successful or normal auto mechanic.

Second, Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. So we gain our faith from hearing the Holy Bible. When I hear the words of the Holy Bible, I get faith. But faith does not stop with just a one time acceptance of hearing the gospel message alone. There are other words in the Bible that I must have faith in, as well. A person can accept the words that teach the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but if they reject say... the Trinity in 1 John 5:7 KJB that says, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” then they are rejecting the portion of the faith (i.e. the Bible). Can a person reject the Trinity and be saved? I don't believe they can because we are told to worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Anyways, my point here is that if the Bible teaches that we must be fruitful by having good works, and we must live holy lives, and the Bible is a part of the faith, then these things are a necessary component of salvation. For we are saved by God's grace THROUGH faith (Ephesians 2:8). For without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). But if a Christian says that works and holy living is not necessary as a part of salvation, they are saying that these things are not a part of the faith. They are saying that this is not the kind of faith we must have to access the saving grace of God. But the whole Bible. All of it. We must believe the whole Bible as a part of the faith (Note: Yes, I do believe the New Covenant or New Testament has primarily replaced the Old Covenant or Old Testament; But this does not mean there are not useful and beneficial things in the Old Testament).

Like most Christians, you appear to be coming from the belief that Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6, and Titus 3:5 is referring to even the “work of faith” when in reality it is referring to condemning the false belief that we are saved by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace).

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Anyways, the idea is that if a person thought circumcision is what initially saved them instead of faith in Christ, then they would be making a Law or works the basis of their salvation instead of faith in Jesus Christ and His grace. This is what Paul was fighting against when he wrote Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etc.

For Paul condemns “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace) in Ephesians 2:9 because it is a Man Directed Work in that the fact that a person would boast in themselves by doing it.

However, Paul does allude to briefly to the necessity of the “work of faith” that must follow after we are saved by God's grace in Ephesians 2:10. For we are created unto Christ Jesus to do this kind of work and we are told that we SHOULD walk in these kinds of good works.

It may be easy to say, but there certainly is not contradiction in my belief, that would not make sense. Perhaps there is misunderstanding, and you are not understanding what spiritual works are.

There is faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love. Love is greater than faith and it is greater than hope. This love mentioned is not the feeling often referred to as love, it is the caring and compassion, just as that is in the love from God. With essential faith that any are brought to God through Christ with repentance there is certainly love, there is love of God, in response to God and what is revealed through Christ, and if there is that there is love to others, that with caring and compassion, not that which is about feelings. Any of the things done from this love are spiritual works. Believers with the faith all have those, still all should grow much further in those.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You merely added to my list of examples... All of your examples serve to further prove the point I made...

Mercy is a weightier part of the law, hence the mercy of Joseph makes him a just man. (A man of justice is a just man.)

Part of God's justice is mercy, otherwise, the mercy He's had on us would make Him unjust.

I think the following will reconcile our differences:

The law is not changed to another, but transferred to another: the change that occurred is not in the law itself, but in the covenant of the law.

Hebrews 7:11-12

Strong's:
3331 metathesis met-ath'-es-is from 3346; transposition, i.e. transferral

3346 metatithemi met-at-ith'-ay-mee from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn. see GREEK for 3326 see GREEK for 5087

Some Ancient Translations:

"translatio" --E. Jerome, Heb 7:12 (L. Vulgate) [c.405]
"trans-lacioun" --J. Wycliffe, Heb 7:12 (Wycliffe B.) [c.1395]
"translated" --W. Tyndale, Heb 7:12(Tyndale B.) [1525/1530]
"traspasamiento" --C. de Reina, Heb 7:12 (B. del Oso) [1569]

Some definitions:

Translation /Trans·la´tion/, n. [F. translation, L. translatio a transferring, translation, version. See Translate, and cf. Tralation.] 1. The act of translating, removing, or transferring; removal; also, the state of being translated or removed; as, the translation of Enoch; the translation of a bishop. --Websters Unabridged [1913]

TRANSLA'TION, n. [L. translatio.] 1. The act of removing or conveying from one place to another; removal; as the translation of a disease from the foot to the breast. 2. The removal of a bishop from one See tid=53948 another. 3. The removal of a person to heaven without subjecting him to death. 4. The act of turning into another language; interpretation; as the translation of Virgil or Homer. 5. That which is produced by turning into another language; a version. We have a good translation of the Scriptures. --Websters [1828]

Translation, n. a removal, change, version. --Websters [1806]

The removal of the law from Levi, to Christ, is the change that occurred, the result of which is now a version of the law on the flesh of hearts, instead of tables of stone, no more to be cold and by death, but to be warm, and by love.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. I believe that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It may be easy to say, but there certainly is not contradiction in my belief, that would not make sense.

We have to accept ALL of what the Bible says and not just those parts that we want to hear.
According to Ephesians 2:8: Are you saved by God's grace through love or by faith? So while love is greater, you cannot even be saved unless you first have faith (i.e. We are saved by God's grace through faith). You are also not explaining how the “work of faith” (in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11) is not a part of the faith. Also, Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Word of God is the Bible. So everything in your Bible is a part of the faith including the Bible's teaching on love. You are also not explaining Romans 10:17. Is not the Bible where we derive all matters of faith and practice? Is not Scripture profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness? (2 Timothy 3:16). So yeah. I do not see your belief as being consistent with the faith. For you reduce faith as being a belief alone in Jesus and nothing else. Yet, the faith is believing in the entire Bible and not just in the parts we want to hear (that sound good to us).

Perhaps there is misunderstanding, and you are not understanding what spiritual works are.

I understand the Bible just fine on the topic of works. Any or all good work a true faithful believer does is the work of God done through the believer.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13).

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” (John 15:5).​

A believer should not operate operate of their own power alone in doing works. They must abide in the Lord and seek for God to do the good work through them. For the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, etc.

There is faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love. Love is greater than faith and it is greater than hope.

It is true that love is greater than faith, and hope, but again... you cannot be saved without faith.
A person who rejects the faith of the Bible and loves is still going to be condemned by God.
In 1 Corinthians 13: Paul is making a point about how if we do not love in our faith, then it does not profit us anything.
Love (like the first two commandments) is a part of the faith because it is a part of the Bible (God's Holy Word). We have to believe all of the Bible (the faith) and not just what we want that tickles our ears.

This love mentioned is not the feeling often referred to as love, it is the caring and compassion, just as that is in the love from God.

You just quoted from 1 Corinthians 13 and you did not understand what the chapter is saying. Paul says if I give all my goods to the poor and give my body to burned (loving actions) and I have not love, it profits me nothing.

For example: I heard recently of a Christian whose parents mistreat them badly and yet these parents give to the poor as a part of being church leaders. Obviously they are not loving truly as a part of giving to the poor because they are not loving their own child. It seems like they are putting on a show or just going through the motions in doing loving actions with no real love in their heart. So no. The false idea that you can love in actions and yet you do not love in your heart is false. You need to also truly emotionally love them. The first greatest commandment is to hear that the Lord our God is one God, and to love God with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength (Mark 12:29-30). So love is not just in actions alone, but we are to love God with all our mind, heart, soul, and strength.

With essential faith that any are brought to God through Christ with repentance there is certainly love, there is love of God, in response to God and what is revealed through Christ, and if there is that there is love to others, that with caring and compassion, not that which is about feelings.

Certainly feelings is a part of love (even in the Bible).

Jesus wept (John 11:35).
“Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!” (John 11:36).

Yes, feelings alone without any loving actions is not biblical love;
Yet, loving actions without any loving feelings is also equally as bad.
For if we have not love and give our bodies to be burned, it profits us nothing.

Any of the things done from this love are spiritual works. Believers with the faith all have those, still all should grow much further in those.

What are these loving works? We are to preach the gospel, feed the sheep (teach the brethren), help the brethren (if they are in financial need or health), help the poor, and to worship God and adore Him (loving Him with every fiber of our being). We should seek God to work in our lives and not make it about our own work. It is God who works through us to work love. For God is love. For God alone is good. We are nothing in and of ourselves. We are just vessels who shine the light of Christ.

 

[Albion]

It is true that love is greater than faith, and hope, but again... you cannot be saved without faith.

Exactly so.

The problem with quoting everything that scripture has to say about love, charity, good works, and so on is that these are not equal when it comes to the issue being addressed--salvation.

If the topic were something else (such as how a believer ought to live, for example), then the discussion would rightly focus on those other actions or qualities.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly so.

The problem with quoting everything that scripture has to say about love, charity, good works, and so on is that these are not equal when it comes to the issue being addressed--salvation.

If the topic were something else (such as how a believer ought to live, for example), then the discussion would rightly focus on those other actions or qualities.

1 Corinthians 13 is not a case in how it is not talking about salvation, and or how it is separate from the faith. 1 Corinthians 13 is a part of the overall encompassing blanket of faith because faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is the Bible. 1 Corinthians 13 is a part of our faith in the Lord and or God. In 1 Corinthians 13: Paul is using the word “faith” as in reference to a belief or trust in God and His Word (which deals with salvation). God is love; And love manifests by God working through the believer and this can be seen in true God filled believers in the form of preaching the gospel to others, loving the brethren, helping the poor, etc.

Love is also a part of inheriting eternal life. For in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agrees with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. Love is a part of the overall faith in God's Word (the Bible). But Paul was making a point in 1 Corinthians 13, that if we put forth loving actions like giving all our possessions to help the poor, and or we give our bodies to be burned and we do not have love for God or our neighbor in our heart, it does not profit us anything. Meaning, if we have faith to do certain things of God, and we do not have love, it does not help us. For a person who does not love God or their neighbor in their heart is obviously not saved.