Are we destined to be indebted?

[HTacianas]

The writer to the Ephesians says that we are created by God to do good works:

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

But then Romans says we receive no wages for our works, only debt:

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

So we are compelled to do good works, yet our works place us in debt.

 

[timewerx]

Apostle Paul has a unique style of writing that shouldn't be taken literally when the obvious presents itself.

I think Paul means that changed / renewed person will do good works but the good works itself does not grant us any special favors from God.

We do good works as fruit of our renewed nature, NOT to gain any favor, nor reward from God.

 

[Tolworth John]

Are we destined to be indebted?

Not in the way you have implied.
We are saved because Jesus took our guilt, shame, punishment for us and gave us the right to be 'sons of God', a royal priesthood, holy nation etc etc etc.

How can you imagine what this cost, could you ever hope to repay it?
Why would anyone want to?
A 'free gift' is something we recieve, it is not a cosmic marketting ploy, but genuienly free.

 

[HTacianas]

Apostle Paul has a unique style of writing that shouldn't be taken literally when the obvious presents itself.

I think Paul means that changed / renewed person will do good works but the good works itself does not grant us any special favors from God.

We do good works as fruit of our renewed nature, NOT to gain any favor, nor reward from God.

But what if you commit some trivial sin and want to make up for it? Say you go give some money to a food bank. Your priest is likely going to tell you to do something like that anyway.

Would you be indebted for doing some kind of "work"?

 

[timewerx]

But what if you commit some trivial sin and want to make up for it? Say you go give some money to a food bank. Your priest is likely going to tell you to do something like that anyway.

I think some Christian denominations believe that but I don't. I'm not finding it in the Bible. Good works is simply an expression of our love for the Father upon the renewing of ourselves.

Would you be indebted for doing some kind of "work"?

If you're doing evil works, yes. But for doing good works? That can't be literal.

Note that Paul adapted his teachings to different cultures. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. So not all of Paul's teachings are meant for us and in most likelihood, only meant specifically for the churches it was addressed to.

 

[Tolworth John]

what if you commit some trivial sin

There is no such thing as 'a trivial sin', that is a human false invention.
Think for a moment.
What sin got Adam and Eve chucked out of Eden?

All they did was eat an piece of Fruit. Trivial! No it like all and every sin is an act of rebellion, of rejection of God, his laws and of his authority.

Sin was only dealt with by Jesus dieing.
If that is trivial, then you can call sin trivial.

 

[HTacianas]

There is no such thing as 'a trivial sin', that is a human false invention.
Think for a moment.
What sin got Adam and Eve chucked out of Eden?

All they did was eat an piece of Fruit. Trivial! No it like all and every sin is an act of rebellion, of rejection of God, his laws and of his authority.

Sin was only dealt with by Jesus dieing.
If that is trivial, then you can call sin trivial.

According to the bible there are two types of sin. One is a "sin unto death" and the other is a "sin not unto death". They are definitively defined by the Roman Church as "mortal" and "venial" sins.

1Jo 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which doesnot lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Venial sins are minor and can be forgiven at the prayer of another. According to the bible, see above, we are prohibited from even praying for someone who commits a mortal sin.

Mortal sins are generally all those sins under the Jewish law that are punishable by death.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi the point of Romans 4 is Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham was saved by grace through faith. The contrast in verse 4 is saying if you do works you expect wages. God owes no man and you cannot earn your salvation. Abraham's works are the reaction to the grace he found. Abraham was promised his heirs would be a great nation and have the land of Canaan but he looked for a city who's builder and maker is the LORD not of this earth.

 

[HTacianas]

Hi the point of Romans 4 is Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham was saved by grace through faith. The contrast in verse 4 is saying if you do works you expect wages. God owes no man and you cannot earn your salvation. Abraham's works are the reaction to the grace he found. Abraham was promised his heirs would be a great nation and have the land of Canaan but he looked for a city who's builder and maker is the LORD not of this earth.

It doesn't merely state that you will not receive wages, but that you will end up in debt for doing the very works we are created for.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

It doesn't merely state that you will not receive wages, but that you will end up in debt for doing the very works we are created for.

Hi a good Bible teacher Chuck Smith in his commentary on Romans 4 says this.
Chapter 4

Now what shall we say concerning Abraham the father, as pertaining to the flesh, what did he find? For if Abraham were justified by his works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God (Rom 4:1-2).

If it was Abraham's works that brought him justification, then Abraham could boast in his works. He could say, "I left my home, I left my family on the other side of the Euphrates River, and I journeyed not even knowing where I was going, just waiting for God to show me. And I was willing to offer my son." He could have boasted if he was justified by his works, but he could not have boasted in God; he would have had to have boasted in himself.

But what does the scripture say about Abraham? [It says,] Abraham believed God and it was [imputed or] counted unto him for righteousness (Rom 4:3).

Why? He just believed in God, that is what God accounted for righteousness.

Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt (Rom 4:4).

But God will never be a debtor to you; God will never owe you a thing. I am always a debtor to God, but God will never be a debtor to me. Now, if righteousness could come by works, then once I did those works God would owe me salvation. If it were of works, then it would be a debt. God owing me the rewards for my special effort and my work and my sacrifice and my commitment and all.

But it is by faith. It is through grace, God's grace that He gives to me.

But to him that worketh not, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

I love it because, you see, it opens the door for me. It keeps the door open for me. I can come to God at any time and expect God to bless me, though I may be a total failure as far as my spiritual walk is concerned. Because God blessed on the basis of His grace, not on the basis of my faithfulness to my devotions. "Chuck, you have been good this week, you have been faithful. You didn't yell at anyone on the freeway, special reward this week." No, not so. Do you know that some... I hesitate to say this, but some of the times of God's greatest blessings upon my life have been right after my greatest failures. Because I knew that I just had to cast myself on the grace of God. I knew I couldn't come in my own merit. I knew that I was just bankrupt and I experienced many times the greatest blessings of God upon my life after my greatest failures. We need to rid ourselves of the Santa Claus concept of God. Who brings good little boys all kinds of nice toys out of his big bag, but if you are a bad little boy you will get sticks. He is making out a list and he is checking it twice. He is going to find out who is naughty and nice. The nice ones are going to be rewarded the naughty ones nothing. And I carried that concept of God, and I think God is going to reward me for my good efforts for my faithfulness for my diligence, for whatever my, my, my... No, God's blessings are given to me on the basis of His grace, that way it's always available.

The door is never shut. I can always come to God through faith on the basis of God's grace towards me. To him that works not, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. God looks at me tonight as righteous, because I am believing and do believe completely in the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for me in taking my sin and dying in my place. I believe that completely. God accounts that belief for righteousness. God looks at me and says, "Righteous, a righteous man." I accept that, I know me, I know my weaknesses, I know my failings, and that is why I have to cling to Jesus Christ. That is why I dare not stand in myself.

David described this blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works (Rom 4:6),

In Psalm 32, David said,

Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered (Rom 4:7).

The word blessed is literally, "Oh how happy are they" whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

Now if you go back to that you find it very interesting. David talked about that period of time when he sought to hide his own sin. Now, the hand of God was so heavy on him and he became so dried up inside that it was like a drought in summer. His bones were weary, for day and night the hand of God was heavy upon his life, until he finally said, "I am going to confess my sins to the Lord." And God immediately forgave him all of his iniquity. "Oh how happy is the man whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered."

Then he went on even more daring to say,

Oh how happy is the man to whom God does not impute iniquity (Rom 4:8).

That is, the man to whom God has no list. God doesn't impute iniquity unto that man who is believing and trusting in Jesus Christ. What a beautiful position that is where God is not imputing iniquity to me, because of my faith. Now, I would not dare to say this unless it was said in the scriptures. I mean, this seems to be so presumptuous I wouldn't dare to utter it, but the scripture declares it, so I am only declaring what the scripture declares. Oh how happy I am that God accounts me righteous and does not account my iniquities against me because of my faith in Jesus Christ.

God accounts me righteous. Now comes this happiness,

 

[HTacianas]

Hi a good Bible teacher Chuck Smith in his commentary on Romans 4 says this.
Chapter 4

Now what shall we say concerning Abraham the father, as pertaining to the flesh, what did he find? For if Abraham were justified by his works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God (Rom 4:1-2).

If it was Abraham's works that brought him justification, then Abraham could boast in his works. He could say, "I left my home, I left my family on the other side of the Euphrates River, and I journeyed not even knowing where I was going, just waiting for God to show me. And I was willing to offer my son." He could have boasted if he was justified by his works, but he could not have boasted in God; he would have had to have boasted in himself.

But what does the scripture say about Abraham? [It says,] Abraham believed God and it was [imputed or] counted unto him for righteousness (Rom 4:3).

Why? He just believed in God, that is what God accounted for righteousness.

Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt (Rom 4:4).

But God will never be a debtor to you; God will never owe you a thing. I am always a debtor to God, but God will never be a debtor to me. Now, if righteousness could come by works, then once I did those works God would owe me salvation. If it were of works, then it would be a debt. God owing me the rewards for my special effort and my work and my sacrifice and my commitment and all.

But it is by faith. It is through grace, God's grace that He gives to me.

But to him that worketh not, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5).

I love it because, you see, it opens the door for me. It keeps the door open for me. I can come to God at any time and expect God to bless me, though I may be a total failure as far as my spiritual walk is concerned. Because God blessed on the basis of His grace, not on the basis of my faithfulness to my devotions. "Chuck, you have been good this week, you have been faithful. You didn't yell at anyone on the freeway, special reward this week." No, not so. Do you know that some... I hesitate to say this, but some of the times of God's greatest blessings upon my life have been right after my greatest failures. Because I knew that I just had to cast myself on the grace of God. I knew I couldn't come in my own merit. I knew that I was just bankrupt and I experienced many times the greatest blessings of God upon my life after my greatest failures. We need to rid ourselves of the Santa Claus concept of God. Who brings good little boys all kinds of nice toys out of his big bag, but if you are a bad little boy you will get sticks. He is making out a list and he is checking it twice. He is going to find out who is naughty and nice. The nice ones are going to be rewarded the naughty ones nothing. And I carried that concept of God, and I think God is going to reward me for my good efforts for my faithfulness for my diligence, for whatever my, my, my... No, God's blessings are given to me on the basis of His grace, that way it's always available.

The door is never shut. I can always come to God through faith on the basis of God's grace towards me. To him that works not, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. God looks at me tonight as righteous, because I am believing and do believe completely in the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for me in taking my sin and dying in my place. I believe that completely. God accounts that belief for righteousness. God looks at me and says, "Righteous, a righteous man." I accept that, I know me, I know my weaknesses, I know my failings, and that is why I have to cling to Jesus Christ. That is why I dare not stand in myself.

David described this blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works (Rom 4:6),

In Psalm 32, David said,

Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered (Rom 4:7).

The word blessed is literally, "Oh how happy are they" whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

Now if you go back to that you find it very interesting. David talked about that period of time when he sought to hide his own sin. Now, the hand of God was so heavy on him and he became so dried up inside that it was like a drought in summer. His bones were weary, for day and night the hand of God was heavy upon his life, until he finally said, "I am going to confess my sins to the Lord." And God immediately forgave him all of his iniquity. "Oh how happy is the man whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered."

Then he went on even more daring to say,

Oh how happy is the man to whom God does not impute iniquity (Rom 4:8).

That is, the man to whom God has no list. God doesn't impute iniquity unto that man who is believing and trusting in Jesus Christ. What a beautiful position that is where God is not imputing iniquity to me, because of my faith. Now, I would not dare to say this unless it was said in the scriptures. I mean, this seems to be so presumptuous I wouldn't dare to utter it, but the scripture declares it, so I am only declaring what the scripture declares. Oh how happy I am that God accounts me righteous and does not account my iniquities against me because of my faith in Jesus Christ.

God accounts me righteous. Now comes this happiness,

Jas 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:24 - Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Tolworth John]

Venial sins are minor and can be forgiven at the prayer of another. According to the bible, see above, we are prohibited from even praying for someone who commits a mortal sin.

Mortal sins are generally all those sins under the Jewish law that are punishable by death.

All Adam did was to eat a fruit and he got expelled from Eden, cursed and separated from God.

Yes he ignored Gods command not to eat the fruit, but every sin involves breaking Gods law.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The writer to the Ephesians says that we are created by God to do good works:

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

But then Romans says we receive no wages for our works, only debt:

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

So we are compelled to do good works, yet our works place us in debt.

It is speaking about salvation, there are no works we can do to earn it. Paul is saying IF if salvation were by works then salvation would be our wages.

The works in Ephesians are the fruit of being saved...we can't address those things until we are saved.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The word in Romans is wages not debt, Paul is saying salvation would be wages for doing good works. But salvation is FREE by faith.