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Are we declared right with God before giving up sin

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by acceptjesus, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. acceptjesus

    acceptjesus Guest

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    Are we declared right with God before we give up sin is this what it means that justification proceeds sanctification?
     
  2. acceptjesus

    acceptjesus Guest

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    please take the time to answer
     
  3. acceptjesus

    acceptjesus Guest

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    So we are declared right with God before giving up sin I don't have to give up my sin before I can be made right with God?
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I believe you are only justified while still in sin if you are practicing or in the process of, sanctification...

    To those "trying" their best and within to each one their own ability with sin (unless of course their is some justified reason, and only God knows, a justified reason with God for NOT "trying")...

    God Bless!
     
  5. acceptjesus

    acceptjesus Guest

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    I don't understand what you mean?
     
  6. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    If your trying your best in the battle against sin, God will know it, if your not, he will also know it, and I believe the only ones justified are the ones "trying their best" in the battle against sin.

    When I said to each one his own ability, I meant that some are more or less capable than others in the battle (struggle) against sin... Some are able to do away with it almost completely (those who are more able) and others of us really struggle hard and can never seem to overcome certain things that others can (those less able)...

    And God knows each ones abilities, but what matters for justification while still in sin, is that your trying your best in the battle against sin.

    And what I meant by saying "Unless theirs some kind of justified reason in God's eyes for one giving up the battle against sin and not trying, (cause only God can judge and know such things) But mental health issues like depression, bi-polar, scitzophrenia, among other disorders, which can hinder one and make one less successful (less able) in the battle against sin...

    As I said only God knows each of our abilities, and I believe one is justified in God's eyes by their trying their best within their ability...

    Does that make it any clearer? I hope so, I don't know how else to describe it, in Jesus name,

    God Bless!
     
  7. jbearnolimits

    jbearnolimits Pastor

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    The short answer is no. Unless we repent we can never be right with God. Repentance is one of the requirements for salvation.

    I have not heard the phrase justification proceeds sanctification. But we must be justified for salvation. And that can not happen without repentance. Sanctification simply means to be set apart for a purpose.
     
  8. ALoveDivine

    ALoveDivine Saved By Grace

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    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Us "trying" doesn't save us, that is working, working does not bring salvation, period. Please don't give false answers to those who are genuinely seeking biblical counsel.

    A Christian will struggle with sin their whole lives...BUT a true Christian will hate sin and long to walk in holiness. Furthermore a true Christian will grow in holiness as they live a more and more surrendered life, trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit within them.

    You don't have to stop sinning to be saved, that would be salvation by works. However you must repent and believe in Christ alone. To repent means first of all to confess, and know in your heart, that you are a wicked sinner deserving of God's wrath. This is the first step.

    Repentance also involves a hatred of your sinful self and a real desire to abandon your wicked ways and turn to God. To repent is to deny yourself and bow down before Christ for your salvation. It is to surrender your life to God once-and-for all, without condition, to cry out to God for mercy and fall to your knees in a humble embrace of his Lordship.

    True repentance will produce within you a new heart and new affections, it will give you a hatred of sin and a love for holiness, a deep love for Christ, a love for fellow Christians, and a desire to be more like Jesus. Yes, you will still have struggles with sin but you will walk in newness of life, and sin will no longer enslave you.
     
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I agree repentance is a big part of it, but in ones trying, I automatically assumed that their learning to hate it (the sin) and I just automatically assumed repenting was what he was doing, but it wasn't going away...

    "Repenting" doesn't "magically" make the sin or temptations go away, their is still some self-effort of the free will God gave you involved... God not gonna force you not to sin, or magically remove all temptations....

    In fact sometimes the closer you try to get to God, the stronger the temptations (to sin) get, which is what I believe to be an attack by Satan for trying to follow God, but that I believe God allows cause he is ultimately "using" it/Satan, to refine you like precious metals in a fiery furnace...

    And, you didn't answer the original question: Do you believe Justification comes before sanctification, or not?

    God Bless!
     
  10. ALoveDivine

    ALoveDivine Saved By Grace

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    Yes. One is justified, which means to be declared righteous, the very moment one repents and trusts in Christ. Justification is instantaneous and is NOT based on our performance. Our justification is based on the perfect performance of Christ, which is imputed to our account at the moment we are grafted into the New Covenant; ie, the moment of repentance and saving faith.

    Sanctification follows justification. We are made perfect positionally (legally) at the moment of justification, but we are progressively made more and more righteous personally as we live out the Christian life. At the moment of justification God declares us righteous, by virtue of Christ, and then throughout the process of sanctification we are actually made to be righteous, conformed to the image of Christ, though perfection in this life is unattainable.

    One can mess up bad when it comes to sanctification, but this does not affect justification. That being said, no one is truly justified who does not bear some fruit of sanctification. God doesn't justify people and then not sanctify them, though the sanctification process can be hindered and frustrated by our rebelliousness. But God will not allow a truly justified person to utterly abandon themselves to sin, he will discipline us and chastise us and bring us back into submission.

    If one claims to be justified, and yet lives in continuous and unrepentant sin with no care whatsoever for holiness, that person is simply demonstrating that they have never been justified at all.

    Salvation cannot ever be lost because our justification is NOT based on our merit, but is based upon the perfect merit of Christ on our behalf. If you could do ANYTHING that would cause you to lose your justification, then your justification would be based, at least in part, upon your own merit. It is not. It is only the perfect merit of Christ, imputed to our account, that allows us to be embraced as children by an infinitely holy and just God.

    The "free will" you speak of comes into effect when you come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and are brought to the point of repentance, at which time you must choose whether to repent and trust Christ and thereby enter into the New Covenant, or to reject it and die in your sins. Upon repentance and faith you are sealed with the Holy Spirit and you are forever secure in the love of God in Christ.
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    "Repentance" is for "forgiveness" of past sins, and since some of us sin everyday, it is an everyday thing for some people, but what it doesn't do is remove all future temptations (if you wan't God to keep you free from temptation, then pray for that, but it is not included in/with "repentance"...)

    God as I said will not force you to not sin, and probably won't remove "all" future temptations either, cause they are used by him for refining work in a believer, so, your personal free "will" and you still have to exercise your own "willpower" to not sin, cause God's not going to force you to not sin, but he presents you with choices to see how you will use your free will, or willpower that he gave you to chose or not choose to sin or not...

    God Bless!
     
  12. fozzy

    fozzy Guest

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    You were declared right 2000 years ago on the cross before you were even born.
     
  13. ALoveDivine

    ALoveDivine Saved By Grace

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    Repentance unto salvation is a turning from your self-ruled ways to God in faithful surrender, and thereby entering into the New Covenant forged in the shed blood of Christ.

    Correction; all of us. Who among us has lived a single day where they have loved God perfectly, with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? Every single day, every Christian alive breaks the greatest commandment.

    You seem to still be under the mistaken impression that our performance has something to do with our justification. It does not. If you are in Christ you are not judged, or damned, because of your sins. Why? Because Christ took the penalty for your sins and removed them as far as the east is from the west.

    How many of your sins were future sins when Christ died? All of them. Do you get what I'm saying? I'm not denying that we play a cooperative role in our sanctification, I am only denying that a child a God can be damned for their failures.

    We stand justified only by the imputed righteousness of Christ, and we will never come into condemnation because Christ paid the penalty for all of our sins. However, we can lose comfort, assurance, blessings, and eternal rewards for messing up in the sanctification process. But we CANNOT lose our justification and be damned.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    "You seem to still be under the mistaken impression that our performance has something to do with our justification."

    You seem to be of the mind that we can sin all we want and still be saved,

    I am saying that someone who doesn't "try" motivated purely out of reciprocated love, that he (Jesus) first showed us, and is purely because we want to please him and make him proud and put a smile on his face, and because sin harms us and other people, and hinders us from true spiritual knowledge and wisdom and the gifts/fruits of the Spirit not because I think performance has anything to do with Justification (other than just "trying") purely out of love alone...

    I don't believe you really have the Love of God in you, if there's no fruit, and if your not resisting and shooting down temptation... The fruit of Love is wanting to improve ourselves so as to be more pleasing to God (not because were trying to "earn" anything or prove ourselves "better" than anybody else or that we are "righteous", cause were not)

    But the fruit of Love, (if you truly have the Love of God in you), will be motivation to change and improve, as I said, ourselves, so as to be more pleasing to God (make him proud and put a smile on his face) and so that we can better serve (be a witness for Christ, and other good deeds) and Love others better, and "sin" gets in the way of that...


    "How many of your sins were future sins when Christ died? All of them. Do you get what I'm saying?"

    It still requires confession and repentance, to get the forgiveness of your sin(s), get what I'm saying?


    "I'm not denying that we play a cooperative role in our sanctification"

    Well, at least we agree there...


    I am only denying that a child a God can be damned for their failures.

    We all stumble and fall (on some days) and we sometimes feel like were on top of, or can conquer the world on others, God understands when people stumble and fall, but he want's us to get up at some point and keep going, and pressing forward on onward toward the/our goal...

    So, we agree their one will not be damned on the days where he stumbles and falls or fails and falters, but God doesn't want us "living there" and remaining there, in that beaten, defeated, and broken down state, I believe it hurts his heart when we try to make that/those "places" our "home" everyday, he wants to get back up and keep going, fight the good fight, press onward toward the goal, when we do this I believe it makes him "Happy" and that's another reason why "I" do it is because I want to make God "happy" not sad...

    God Bless!
     
  15. acceptjesus

    acceptjesus Guest

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    Well I've repented and trusted Christ. Please pray for me that I would be kept from temptation.
     
  16. Sonicwhite

    Sonicwhite CrazyCatMan

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    Since the old covenant is out dated we become children of God thru faith in Jesus Christ once and for all when we accepted Him. Remember the book of Hebrews....In the context of what they where talking about or Paul. He said we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, meaning those of the Old Covenant. We belong to Christ and our sins are paid for. Now the Holy Ghost will always stab our hearts to become holy......But, until we die and we are with the Lord we have a crown here also we wear. Our work here must be done before we get a crown out righteousness in heaven. The work we will do there forever.
     
  17. ALoveDivine

    ALoveDivine Saved By Grace

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    No, you're missing the point. One who is saved is born-again, given a new nature. We don't obey God because we fear going to Hell, we obey him because we LOVE him and want to please him out of gratitude.

    Yes, we are going to heaven no matter what we do. That will motivate a saved person to seek greater and greater holiness and love God ever more deeply. A lost person will hear that same truth and forget about God and go on sinning. That is the difference. If you are born-again the grace of God in your eternal security will motivate you to live holy and devoted to Christ.

    I agree. You just said it yourself brother. If you bear no fruit, you do not have the love of God in you. Let me add one thing. If you do not have the love of God in you, you are not saved. I don't care how many prayers you prayed.

    Yes, in terms of fellowship. If I sin and then don't confess and repent of it, my fellowship with God is broken and my graces and comforts are shattered until I do confess and repent. I know this from scripture and personal experience. It is a very dark place to be.

    But, if you sin and then get hit by a bus, you certainly are not going to Hell. You are justified, again, on the merits of Christ not your own. A believer's sins will not put them in Hell. Unrepentant sin in a believers life with hurt their fellowship with the Lord and will bring upon them the corrective chastisement of God, it will not bring damnation, because Christ took the divine wrath in our place.

    Yes but in yourself you can't do that. You are completely dependent on him and his grace. If perseverance was up to you or me, we'd fail without a doubt. We persevere because we are kept by the power of God through the faith he has given us (1 Peter 1:5).
     
  18. peterandrewj

    peterandrewj Wayfarer

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    Yes!

    I believed the gospel and received the Spirit of promise, at which point I was justified by faith, followed by repentance and sanctification.

    I did not see my sin until Jesus came into my heart. It took God showing up to shed light on my entire life of unbelief before I could know sin, and see what it had done to me, how it had deceived me, and the abominations it had formed in me.

    My sin and blindness towards it was no problem for God saving me because of what Jesus had done.

    God led me into repentance through the life of Christ which we live. Only Christ in us can subdue our sins, by walking after the Spirit, living the word, obeying the gospel...being changed from inside out by his power.

    My first fight against sin was the guilt, fear, condemnation, shame....defeating it by faith in the blood of Jesus. As the Spirit led me into life, I had to forsake all sinful ways from within my heart, choosing to love righteousness instead, in order for me to follow Jesus.

    It's in walking after the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the body. Don't try to do it by will power because that's an exercise in futility.

    I pray God deliver you from all bondage, every sin, every temptation, in Jesus name.
     
  19. Norah63

    Norah63 Newbie

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    Peterandrew said it better than I could, may I just add my amen.