Are we children of grace?

[Philip_B]

My guess is that we would all want to affirm this self understanding. I have been mulling around (that's probably not the right term) for about two years now, having been encouraged here by an Easter Orthodox Christian.

In initially I was a bit amazed at what seemed the smallness of the Anglican presence and then I came to see that there is a large North American presence, and seemingly lots of reformed and over-reformed Christians.

I grew up in a diocese which was obsessively reformed, and was constantly told by sunday school teachers that we owned the truth. I find this approach dangerous, and leads people, it would seem to be quite arrogant about their position of faith over and against all other positions of faith. I found greater comfort in a more Catholic expression of faith, initially with the Lutherans and ultimately with the Anglicans again. The sense of seeking after truth, the humility to listen, where things that helped me.

Back to CF, I have been on the brunt of a few discussions recently, either from Protestants declaring my position void of integrity, or from Catholics suggesting I am a Protestant and a Heretic ... I guess I am old enough and big enough not to care too much, but I do lament that we are not on the whole more gracious.

I would be interested in what others think.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What do you man by "sense" of seeking after truth ?

 

[mukk_in]

I'm no theologian, but as a simple lay/country preacher my answer is yes. We are children of grace, i.e., sons of God (Galatians 3:26-28, 1 Thessalonians 5:5) in our Lord Jesus Christ. Peace in Christ, Sir .

 

[Paidiske]

If I follow your train of thought...

One of the reasons I chose Anglicanism - and one of the things which makes me stay - is that we're humble enough to admit that we can be wrong. Having the influence of the Reformation probably shapes this, but that sense that we're not above making mistakes, and that we can rely on God to lead us in growth, seems to me far healthier than what I see in Catholicism (painting themselves into awkward corners with so-called infallible and unchanging teaching that doesn't stand up well to the test of time), or the kind of "supremely confident that how I understand the Bible right now is exactly everything God ever intended Christians to know" attitude that comes from some more radically reformed folks.

There's a humility to it. And an openness that other Christians might be people I can learn from, and that we can accompany and edify one another along the road. I value that.

 

[Philip_B]

What do you man by "sense" of seeking after truth ?

Perhaps always ready to learn rather than proclaiming we have it all.

 

[sdowney717]

Perhaps always ready to learn rather than proclaiming we have it all.

Most certainly children of God's grace. God reveal things to spiritual man who has received the Spirit which is from God, while the natural man has the spirit of the world inside of them.
Natural man cannot know God and is at enmity with God.

Persons who do not know God and Christ and know anything of the kingdom of God in Christ, they be only a natural man, and a natural unspiritual man is profane and ungodly.

1 Corinthians 2:9-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Albion]

In initially I was a bit amazed at what seemed the smallness of the Anglican presence and then I came to see that there is a large North American presence, and seemingly lots of reformed and over-reformed Christians.

I grew up in a diocese which was obsessively reformed, and was constantly told by sunday school teachers that we owned the truth. I find this approach dangerous, and leads people, it would seem to be quite arrogant about their position of faith over and against all other positions of faith. I found greater comfort in a more Catholic expression of faith, initially with the Lutherans and ultimately with the Anglicans again. The sense of seeking after truth, the humility to listen, where things that helped me.

Hi, Philip. Your message catches me off-guard and I don't know quite how to reply. However, and for the moment, I notice one point in it that I might comment on briefly.

In North America there are virtually no real lowchurchmen. Not absolutely none, but close to it. Even those who say they are Biblical Anglicans or Evangelicals, etc. are nothing really like those terms would suggest. They are sensible Catholics who accept the Articles but don't argue over them and would prefer that the priest not get too carried away when vesting.

I get from my readings on CF that, in Australia, a somewhat different situation exists.

 

[Paidiske]

I get from my readings on CF that, in Australia, a somewhat different situation exists.

This is certainly true. The breadth of Anglicanism in Australia frequently seems to stretch the charity of all involved (and certainly mine).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Perhaps always ready to learn rather than proclaiming we have it all.

Sorry but I don't see "ready to learn" as any kind of seeking the truth. (in any "sense").
Most people on earth learn daily how to sin more, and do so. Their learning/ being ready to learn does not help them at all.

 

[Philip_B]

Hi, Philip. Your message catches me off-guard and I don't know quite how to reply. However, and for the moment, I notice one point in it that I might comment on briefly.

In North America there are virtually no real lowchurchmen. Not absolutely none, but close to it. Even those who say they are Biblical Anglicans or Evangelicals, etc. are nothing really like those terms would suggest. They are sensible Catholics who accept the Articles but don't argue over them and would prefer that the priest not get too carried away when vesting.

I get from my readings on CF that, in Australia, a somewhat different situation exists.

Hi Albion, I think I get that, and I think I have been frank about having little but bewilderment when it comes to Anglicanism in North America. In Australia our Dioceses have tended to polarise a little (or a little more than a little) along theological or churchpersonship lines and whilst a few of the dioceses have a broader spread, many do not, which can lead to a sense of battle. We have seen in Australia what we might call a non-liturgical movement where people go to meetings on Sundays and sing songs, read the bible and fellowship. There is a moving back from that position, I think, but I have heard Baptists complain that Anglicans have no sense of the sacramental. I don't think you have any sense of that in North America. The far edge of the catholic Anglicanism has also to some extent lost its way, partly from having become entrenched in opposition to the ordination of women, and ultimately not sitting comfortably in those dioceses that do ordain women (which is now nearly all of them). We have to day managed to avoid the debilitating fracturing of the North American scene, (there are a couple of small groups but distances in Australia are the killer), and I think we will stay together somehow, the one caveat being if GAFCON stays within reach of the Communion.

This wasn't where I was thinking when I posted, however it is really in the same zone. If we are, as we proclaim, children of grace, then why are we not more gracious with one another? (and I intend that question for myself as well, why am I not more gracious?)

 

[Albion]

I think you want to get back to that other topic, but I want to say this--it looks like the North American churches came apart (and the original parts continue to lose membership at an alarming rate), but there is less of a variance in churchmanship, particularly from diocese to diocese, than might be expected. Yet in Australia it appears to me that the situation is reversed on both of those points. Odd, isn't it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This wasn't where I was thinking when I posted, however it is really in the same zone. If we are, as we proclaim, children of grace, then why are we not more gracious with one another? (and I intend that question for myself as well, why am I not more gracious?)

Have you read in Scripture throughout the Bible that
God in His Perfect Grace is First (or also) Perfect in Judgment, a God of Truth and Without Iniquity, "Just and Right is He" ?

 

[Philip_B]

Have you read in Scripture throughout the Bible that
God in His Perfect Grace is First (or also) Perfect in Judgment, a God of Truth and Without Iniquity, "Just and Right is He" ?

Yes

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes

Do you think you (or anyone) can be gracious, God's Way, righteously,
without right judgment ?
i.e. God says even He Himself will have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy.

and Jesus says in God's Word "I (Jesus) Do Not Pray For Everyone, no, but for these disciples You (Heavenly Father, ABBA ELOHIM) Have Given Me, and for those who will be disciples after them.

Do you think/ have you read in Scripture, that God gives those same instructions to all His disciples ? To judge righteously, God's judgment, not man's. (we don't even trust our own judgment, but rely on and share/ agree with God's judgment).

p.s. I've never that I remember thought like this and had a discussion like this on the internet , so it is step by step..... Yahweh (God) Willing and Guiding us.

 

[Philip_B]

Do you think you (or anyone) can be gracious, God's Way, righteously,
without right judgment ?
i.e. God says even He Himself will have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy.

and Jesus says in God's Word "I (Jesus) Do Not Pray For Everyone, no, but for these disciples You (Heavenly Father, ABBA ELOHIM) Have Given Me, and for those who will be disciples after them.

Do you think/ have you read in Scripture, that God gives those same instructions to all His disciples ? To judge righteously, God's judgment, not man's. (we don't even trust our own judgment, but rely on and share/ agree with God's judgment).

p.s. I've never that I remember thought like this and had a discussion like this on the internet , so it is step by step..... Yahweh (God) Willing and Guiding us.

John 17

John 17:20-24
‘I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.​

I am not sure about the judgement part, or our role as dispensers of God's judgement. I am more inclined along the lines of

Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 17

John 17:20-24
‘I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.​

I am not sure about the judgement part, or our role as dispensers of God's judgement. I am more inclined along the lines of

Forgives us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us​

If we are echad with Jesus and the Father, the same as Jesus and the Father are echad (have been forever), as Jesus prayed there in your quote of John 17,
and if we have the mind of Christ (as written in Scripture),
and if we abide in Christ (as written in Scripture) and His Word abides in us (as written in Scripture),
and if we WALK IN UNION WITH JESUS (as written throughout the NT of the Ekklesia who lived daily IN UNION WITH JESUS) ,
then also
as written in Scripture:
John 7:24 Stop judging by outward appearances, and start judging ...
biblehub.com/john/7-24.htm
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Christian Standard Bible Stop judging according to outward appearances; rather judge ...
‎John 7:24 KJV · ‎John 7:24 Commentaries · ‎John 7:24 NLT · ‎John 7:24 ESV

Study Bible
Jesus Teaches at the Feast
…23If a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, why are you angry with Me for making the whole man well on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by outward appearances, and start judging justly.” 25Then some of the people of Jerusalem began to say, “Isn’t this the man they are trying to kill?…
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
Leviticus 19:15
"You must not pervert justice; you must not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the rich; you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

 

[Philip_B]

If we are echad with Jesus and the Father, the same as Jesus and the Father are echad (have been forever), as Jesus prayed there in your quote of John 17,
and if we have the mind of Christ (as written in Scripture),
and if we abide in Christ (as written in Scripture) and His Word abides in us (as written in Scripture),
and if we WALK IN UNION WITH JESUS (as written throughout the NT of the Ekklesia who lived daily IN UNION WITH JESUS) ,
then also
as written in Scripture:
John 7:24 Stop judging by outward appearances, and start judging ...
biblehub.com/john/7-24.htm
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Christian Standard Bible Stop judging according to outward appearances; rather judge ...
‎John 7:24 KJV · ‎John 7:24 Commentaries · ‎John 7:24 NLT · ‎John 7:24 ESV

Study Bible
Jesus Teaches at the Feast
…23If a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, why are you angry with Me for making the whole man well on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by outward appearances, and start judging justly.” 25Then some of the people of Jerusalem began to say, “Isn’t this the man they are trying to kill?…
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
Leviticus 19:15
"You must not pervert justice; you must not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the rich; you are to judge your neighbor fairly.

This seems to argue for the acceptability of judgementalism. The Australian Crictets got a hard time for using sabdpaper on the balls, but it seems their is an abrasive christianity as a wsy of doing theology which is what I find difficult.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This seems to argue for the acceptability of judgementalism. The Australian Crictets got a hard time for using sabdpaper on the balls, but it seems their is an abrasive christianity as a wsy of doing theology which is what I find difficult.

You might be offended by Jesus and by His Father's Way.
He said "Blessed are you if you are not offended by Me (Jesus) "
As for what you saw or experienced and call "abrasive christianity" , I have no knowledge about that.
Realize that Jesus told the disciples who were with Him, and today,
that even our own families may be our worst enemy,
and groups we used to be in(any group, any kind of group) , when they discover that the Creator Savior we serve demands a total life change, they will turn on us and gnash their teeth at us and put us out of the assembly and even will think they are doing God a favor killing us.
i.e. they , the world, society, does not accept us nor the God we serve in truth and in holiness in Jesus, according to His Word.

DO they think we are 'abrasive' ? Much worse than that ! But we cannot compomise - uncompromised righteousness is required. NEVER deny Jesus , no, never, for any reason.

As for "judgmentalism" as you call it remember all the groups of men everywhere, religious and politic and medical (worst of all) and educational, and social,
all claim
that if you speak against them you are not only wrong, but that you don't love them, and that you are with a demon, not with Jesus. (I think all the groups are that way, except for the few serving Jesus).

If you do not judge rightly, as Jesus and the Father say to do,
how would you ever know who is true and serving Jesus, vs who is false and serving demons ? (it is NOT obvious nor known to the world/ other people/ who serves Jesus and who serves the devil ---- because 'they' are not able to or refuse to judge rightly)

"Test everything" , the way God says to. (not in the flesh, nor at all by what is carnal - not by what can be seen with the eyes or heard with the ears or experienced in the body ----- ) learn from God His Judgment (there is no other way), by His Spirit (revelation) and His Word (always, always, always in line with His Word, as HE says)

It can take time. Sometimes (I've seen more often) "little children" can tell right away when someone is lying. Adults often have a much harder time realizing when someone is lying to them, or they don't want to admit/ accept / tell that they are lying.
"don't make waves" is a common society ploy of the enemy.

Jesus Way "AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, LIVE AT PEACE WITH ALL MEN" but without compromising - i.e. always honor God in all of our words and deeds and actions,
always being full of thankfulness to God by grace and faith in Jesus ,
praying constantly as soon as any need is known,
finding at God's Throne of Grace all that is needed , as He Says.

 

[Philip_B]

You might be offended by Jesus and by His Father's Way.

Not at all.

As for what you saw or experienced and call "abrasive christianity" , I have no knowledge about that.

Have a look around CF. I am sure you will be able to find some examples. You might ask why in such a forum where we have all signed off on the Nicene Creed the Moderators seems to be busy, and numbers of threads are cleaned, moderated or indeed closed.

It seems to me that there is the core of Christian Faith, that which must believed, and then there is that body of belief near the centre, and then there is other belief areas, and then there is the stuff that is just off the court.

I am not sure that we are having the same conversation. For example, as an Anabaptist I would assume that you would not accept infant baptism, whereas as an Anglican I would. I would see that as a difference in belief, however I would not see that in the core of that which must be believed. If someone comes to the Anglican Church having been baptised in another tradition (as an infant or otherwise) we would in principle accept that Baptism and not repeat the action on the grounds of the Nicene Creed 'We believe in one Baptism'. I don't know, however I would imagine someone baptised in another tradition who wanted to join the Anabaptists would need to be re-baptised. I see no reason for us not to be able to have a discussion about that without denigrating one another.

 

[Paidiske]

I think you want to get back to that other topic, but I want to say this--it looks like the North American churches came apart (and the original parts continue to lose membership at an alarming rate), but there is less of a variance in churchmanship, particularly from diocese to diocese, than might be expected. Yet in Australia it appears to me that the situation is reversed on both of those points. Odd, isn't it?

I suspect it might have to do with the way our respective constitutions are structured, although I have never read the constitution of TEC. I know ours is... problematic... in the way it governs decision making and relations between dioceses.