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Featured Are we born spiritually alive or dead?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Johnny4ChristJesus, Oct 8, 2018.

  1. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    There are some lies that I carried with me from my church upbringing as a weak mainline protestant churchgoer, before God woke me up. As examples:

    (1) I didn't believe in the born again thing. God did it to me, anyway. Now I do.
    (2) I didn't believe in the gifts being around today. God blessed me with tongues and proved the gift, after chastising me to use it.
    (3) I thought healing evangelists were frauds, even 4 years into my walk with God. God showed me that was a lie. God has since used me to heal people, in Jesus' Name, in places like Walmart and grocery stores that didn't really believe anything was going to happen. Not everyone that I have prayed for was healed, but more than a few, and many had been suffering for a long time and some had even been prayed multiple times before by others.

    I share these, only to say that I'm still open to God changing my heart on a subject, if I have it wrong.

    So, all that leads to this question:

    I have always believed we are body, soul, and spirit as God is Three in One. Clearly, we have a body as humans. We have a soul, which some classify as mind, will and emotions. We could probably just call it our consciousness and responses to our existence. Those are kind of self-existent truths.

    But, I have also believed that we are born spiritually dead. The closest thing I can find to support that is Ephesians 2:1--which very clearly and inconveniently leaves out "born" from "you were dead in your trespasses and sins".


    (1) Biblically speaking, are we conceived spiritually alive and then die at our first sin (which we are predisposed to as a result of inheriting the fallen--sin--nature) OR are we born spiritually dead, courtesy of Adam and Eve's sin and consequence?

    Up front:
    (a) Scripture does support that we are born with a sin nature as a result of Adam and Eve's sin.
    (b) In contrast, Jesus was born spiritually alive, but He didn't have Adam's seed. He was born of the Holy Spirit out of the gate.
    (c) I consider "spiritually alive" to be "in relationship with God" not just having a spirit that hasn't sinned yet.

    (2) Does "b" imply that we are born spiritually dead? Is there any other Scriptural support?

    (3) Can "a" imply that we were spiritually dead, because we are born with a sin nature? And, if so, how do you work through the fact that we still have the old and new natures when we are born again?

    (4) Is there any Scriptural support that proves we are not born spiritually dead?
    (5) do you believe that, Scripturally, I am wrong about what it means to be spiritually alive?

    Thanks for taking the time to share what you believe.
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

    United Kingdom
    This is an interesting question.
    We are born separate from communion with God.
    Only John the Baptist was born with the Holy Spirit, and Jesus.
    Jesus says he will be the least in the Kingdom because of this.

    A symtom of this lack of communion is sinful behaviour, but one could also say
    this lack of communion is sin or separation and rebellion in its own sake.
    One could also argue that this is original sin, inherited from Adam, which will
    lead to judgement and the lake of fire.

    We know its reality because we are always self justifying against the outside world.
    We desire for position and recognition, without realising it, and are driven by conformity.

    In our hearts we know something is wrong, it does not work and we are dying.
    This might actually be a way of expressing we know we need life, and are dead, but
    where is the key.

    When you reach out to Jesus, repent, praise and walk in His love, life suddenly becomes
    real, and things change. It is like the light has gone on, things fit into place, everything
    just knows its right place.

    The apostles call this walking from death to life. C S Lewis in the great divorce described
    it as becoming real from being ghost, a potential.
    The bible calls it becoming wheat and not chaff.

    To make it more complex, or odd, Jesus talks about His sheep, who know Him.
    When I first heard about Jesus, my thoughts were why not is it true. His words
    spoke to my heart, and rescued me with life in darkness.

    I have witnessed to people where it is like the light comes on. So there is a mystery
    here which we may know more when we meet the Lord face to face, but I know He
    is the light of Life, Praise the Lord.
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  3. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Thanks for your thoughts. And, thanks for John the Baptist example. I don't know how, but I spaced that one. He was leaping in His mother's womb!!!! Had to be spiritually alive to do that.
  4. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

    United Kingdom
    I have been searching for many years for an analogy of the Kingdom of heaven.
    Look at the world and how people meet strangers. Think of how they reject outsiders,
    switch off and are closed down to different propositions, and get secure and settled in
    their homes, jobs, family.

    Then brush this away and put God there, face to face. All their heart conflicts,
    unresolved emotion, turmoil, hypocracies, laid bare and allowed to run without
    restraint or protection. They will be just a pile of rubble, nothing working or
    complete. In a sense judgement is complete. And their attitude to the King
    will be just fear, torment and abandonment, having no answers.

    We are unbelievably fragile, and how we live just a compromise often to survive
    and patch up a failing approach. It is only by building our house upon the rock
    of Christ that we have life and a hope or reality in this place with God.
  5. royal priest

    royal priest debtor to grace

    United States
    Psalms 51:5
    Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Body, soul, and spirit:

    Paul mentions people consisting of body, soul, and spirit. But sometimes where one begins and the others leave off is obscure. But in examining ourselves and defining what scripture says about each, we can better understand our condition and how body, soul, and spirit interact.

    In the fall, our spirit died, remaining cut off from God and dead to all of his impulses prompting righteousness. In this state, the soul or mind took over following the cravings of the body. We became like animals following and catering to the body. And with no loving impulse from God for others, we seek only what is best for us.

    In the New Birth our spirit became alive once again to God’s loving impulses through the Holy Spirit living in us. But an immediate struggle resulted within between the flesh (body and soul) and Spirit. Our born-again self wants to do right, but our soul or mind still caters to the animal cravings of the body.

    As we gain strength through God’s word, and new habits form in holiness, the Spirit overpowers the soul making it subservient to God. But the struggle remains as the repair of our soul continues.

    In this advancing state of holiness, we move from not sinning externally. But we battle impure thoughts and imaginations, where they remain tempting but not sin, unless we cater to them.

    At death, our souls and bodies return to the earth where all that is bad returns to the soil. While our spirit enters heaven in sinless bliss. At the resurrection/rapture on the last day, God reunites us with our now purified and glorified bodies where we live forever in the New Heavens and earth.

    Again, this is only opinion but it helps me understand body, soul, and spirit.
  7. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

    United Kingdom
    This particular model, what happens at death is curious.
    Moses and Elijah as talking with Jesus at the transfiguration.(matt 17:3)
    In revelations the souls of the slain are present (rev 6:9)
    Saul speaks to Samuel through a medium ( 1 Sam 28:13)
    Paul talks about dying in faith as falling asleep ( 1 Thess 4:14)

    So I have no answer that to say, Amen, the Lord knows.
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    I believe babies and innocent children are of the kingdom of God.
    The body of flesh was condemned by Adam, but Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the entire world. Meaning, Jesus saves the innocent and or He saves those who have the ability to place their faith in Jesus (Followed by them living faithful to Christ if they are not on their deathbed).

    The Parable of the Prodigal Son is an example of a believer's life (from the moment of their birth to the moment of their new birth - with the prodigal life part being the time they grew up into sin and fell away from God). They were once with the father in favor with him and they fell away into a life of sin (gone prodigal) and were not saved during the time they were in sin, and then when they repented of their sins in coming back to God, they are forgiven and are made alive again and they become found.
  9. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    True students of the bible always find religious lies in every denominational church IMO. There is no perfect 'church' yet IMO.

    As far as I'm concerned, if your spirit died or was dead, then you'd die or be dead physically. Jesus never died physically until 'HE gave up his spirit, into the Father's hand'....THEN 'He breathed his last. Or as bible believers used to correctly say....'EXPIRED'.

    James tells us that without the spirit your body is literally dead. A point which I think agrees with why Jesus literally died.

    JAM 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,....

    I think that, for me, a correct understanding of this Eph 2:1 verse is an equivalent understanding, of a line in the movie "The Green Mile". A movie concerning inmates on 'death row'. When those prisoners walked by, guards/inmates would say "Dead man walking" The point being, they weren't anymore physically 'dead' than the prodigal son was physically 'dead' when his father saw him returning and said; "This my son who was DEAD is alive again."

    The same understanding from above can also be applied to the following verse, which again simply means your body is under a similar 'death sentence' even though the spirit of CHRIST IS IN YOU....HELLLO!!!

    ROM 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Shouldn't this person above, with 'CHRIST IN HIM/HER' be spiritually alive????? :idea: And yet, their walking around in a 'body which is dead because of sin'....or under a 'death sentence'.

    Lastly, when Jesus raised a young maiden from the DEAD, scripture says it was because Jesus called her spirit to return. Uhhh does that mean a dead spirit gives life to a dead/expired body???? I don't think so personally.

    LUK 8:49 While he was still speaking, a man from the ruler's house came and said, "Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the Teacher any more."...8:53 And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But taking her by the hand he called, saying, "Child, arise." 55 And her spirit returned, and she got up at once; and he directed that something should be given her to eat.

    I'm of the persuasion that the spirit you are born with is just as alive as the evil spirits are alive. I'm also of the persuasion that your 'sin nature' is in your flesh. Even Paul said "In my flesh dwells no good thing." Uhhh would that mean Paul forgot his born again spirit and the spirit of Christ were 'in there'? No that isn't what he meant either. He knew where the sin nature resided. And it wasn't in his 'body' but in his'flesh'....there is a difference.

    ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...

  10. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    I greatly appreciate your response. You have certainly given me a lot to think about and study out.

    The quote by James is a very clear challenge. The word He uses, pneuma, is translated breath or spirit, as opposed to the word for soul. It is clearly used to mean spirit much more than breath in the New Testament; but I can't help but wonder if the better translation in James 2:26 wouldn't have been breath. For the body without breath is unquestionably dead, even to an unbeliever.

    There are five verses where soul and spirit are both used in the same context and they are very interesting verses (see below if interested). In fact, Paul even refers to the saving of the spirit, the soul, and the body. God refers to Himself as having a soul. So, Scripture confirms that there is a spirit, a soul, and a body composing a man.

    And, yet, when Jesus and Stephen are dying, they specifically surrender their spirits, unless they are using "pneuma" to mean breath, as in "receive my breath". In each case, when they said this, they both, immediately, breathed their last breath. I understand that pneuma is translated spirit consistently, so one could easily argue against that. But, James 2:26 could easily be understood in that context to--as pneuma meaning "breath", since James also refers to saving a man's soul (psuche)--not spirit--from death in James 5.

    So, the question still remains, are we born spiritually dead (though with a soul and body) or are we born spiritually alive but so entrenched in the flesh nature--even those who are born to a healthy born-again set of parents--that we aren't spiritually alive for long, necessitating our being born again to come into a relationship with God?

    Thank you again! If you want to read more of what I found and summarized above, see below:

    In the Old Testament, when we were first created, God breathed into our nostrils:

    "And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (ASV Genesis 2:7)

    The word used there for soul is not ruwach (the word for spirit) but:

    5315 vp,n< nephesh {neh'-fesh}
    Meaning: 1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man 1b) living being 1c) living being (with life in the blood) 1d) the man himself, self, person or individual 1e) seat of the appetites 1f) seat of emotions and passions 1g) activity of mind 1g1) dubious 1h) activity of the will 1h1) dubious 1i) activity of the character 1i1) dubious
    Origin: from 05314; TWOT - 1395a; n f
    Usage: AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 45; 751

    And in that context, this makes sense. When God made us, He breathed into our flesh and we came alive.

    In the New Testament, Matthew's Gospel in Greek was translated to use a different word than James used. For example, Jesus said:

    "And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (ASV Matthew 10:28)

    That word, psuche, as opposed to pneuma, was used multiple times in the New Testament:

    5590 yuch, psuche {psoo-khay'}
    Meaning: 1) breath 1a) the breath of life 1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a1a) of animals 1a12) of men 1b) life 1c) that in which there is life 1c1) a living being, a living soul 2) the soul 2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.) 2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life 2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
    Origin: from 5594; TDNT - 9:608,1342; n f
    Usage: AV - soul 58, life 40, mind 3, heart 1, heartily + 1537 1, not tr 2; 105

    4151 pneu/ma pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}
    Meaning: 1) a movement of air (a gentle blast 1a) of the wind, hence the wind itself 1b) breath of nostrils or mouth 2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated 2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides 2b) the soul 3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting 3a) a life giving spirit 3b) a human soul that has left the body 3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel 3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men 3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ 4) of God 4a) God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence in itself considered 4a1) manifest in the course of affairs 4a2) by its influence upon the souls productive in the theocratic body (the church) of all the higher spiritual gifts and blessings 4a3) the third person of the trinity, the God the Holy Spirit 5) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one 5a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
    Origin: from 4154; TDNT - 6:332,876; n n
    Usage: AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13, Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3, Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47, spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6, (Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385

    Here is an five interesting verses where both are used together. The first is a prophetic word from God through Elijah. At least three of the remaining four are given to us through the Apostle Paul:

    "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles." (ASV Matthew 12:18)
    "So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (ASV 1 Corinthians 15:45)
    "And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (ASV 1 Thessalonians 5:23)
    "For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart." (ASV Hebrews 4:12)
    "Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ: that, whether I come and see you or be absent, I may hear of your state, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one soul striving for the faith of the gospel;" (ASV Philippians 1:27)

    In fact, the word, psuche, is used to refer to the person/life/being of a human 36 times in the New Testament. Here are some particularly interesting ones:

    ASV Mark 12:30 "and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength."
    ASV Mark 8:37 "For what should a man give in exchange for his soul?"
    ASV Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption."
    ASV Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and soul: and not one of them said that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
    ASV Romans 2:9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
    ASV Hebrews 10:38 But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
    ASV Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
    ASV James 5:20 let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
    ASV 1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
    ASV 3 John 1:2 Beloved, I pray that in all things thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
    ASV Revelation 16:3 And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, even the things that were in the sea.

    When Stephen and Jesus, the only two we have record of doing so in the New Testament, surrendered something, they surrendered and asked God to receive their pneuma. \

    ASV Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon the Lord, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (note: The greek word translated "receive my" actually means "take hold of", so it appears he is asking Jesus for active intervention on behalf of His spirit, not a passive receiving)

    ASV Luke 23:46 "And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend My Spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost."

    Just a note: "he gave up the ghost" is a translation used three times in the KJV/ASV (the other two in Mark's account), it is translated from one Greek word, which doesn't mean that. It simply means:

    1606 evkpne,w ekpneo {ek-pneh'-o}
    Meaning: 1) to breathe out, breathe out one's life, breathe one's last, expire
    Origin: from 1537 and 4154; TDNT - 6:452,876; v
    Usage: AV - give up the ghost 3; 3

    Is it possible that the translators mistranslated James 2:26. Consider this alternative translation:

    "As the body without breath is dead, so faith without works is dead also." I think we can all agree that when a body stops breathing, it is dead.
  11. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

    United Kingdom
    Born out of communion with the Lord, but with a heart of love

    I have spent many years thinking about this issue and what is original sin, the cause of sin and rebellion, what is it to be born in the image of God, what were Adam and Eve before they eat of the tree of knowledge.

    My first conclusion is we are born with love in our being. It is the thing that we operate on, that binds us to our mothers and father, unconditional love and need.
    This is our inheritence from our Heavenly Father.

    Unfortunately because we are not in communion with the Lord, it dies, gets hurt, defended, and we start playing and manipulating the world around us, to meet our requirements.

    In our language this love and need is our spiritual life, the core of who we are. If it gives up that there is any love or hope in the world, we are dead. The isolation and abandonment, the sadness of never being known or understood goes deep.

    This is the power of the cross, God speaking to us in this place and saying, I do love you, and I can reach you. It is also why the cross changed history and brought the Kingdom of Heaven to earth.

    I have people close to me who I know have given up, and feel religion in Christ is just a nice illusion to the hard reality we are alone doomed to suffer, even though they have gone to church all their lives, and know the feeling of connection Jesus brings.

    Sin as far as I can see is the betrayal of those around one, because hurt does not matter, better to make the best of what is over the person next to you, and so what if they are hurt, we are all hurt, and it is just a joke that anybody cares.

    When you know God cares, not a little bit, but eternally and to the depths of His being, things change. The triffles of this world are just that, trinkets and illusions compared to knowing and serving our King. But you need this connection to make it work. And getting there is not a formula or even something one chooses, it is a walk and a commitment, like mining for a diamond miles under ground, possibly pointless, but when found, everything you could imagine.
  12. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

    United Kingdom
    A question of chemistry

    It appears some people have damage to the brain centres which control empathy. People who cannot be empathetic can become psychopathic or autistic.

    It means in essence how we demonstrate our inner life varies and possible some are born seriously damaged. It makes me wonder to a real degree His sheep may be born His sheep.

    An observation by psychologists who study human behaviour is intelligence is not a predictor of whether someone will be socially well adjusted or very anti-social and have serious behavioural problems.

    A common human trait is we assume people are like us, and things are on a level playing field. It actually appears this is not true, and we need to test and be cautious and wise how and who we interact with.

    I have met people who are clearly nuts, hear audible voices, have paranoia and others who claim God gives them messages, but these are clearly very personal and speak more about them rather than others. Some claim to have spiritually born gifting, and can feel a room etc.

    I mention this because spirituality is not a clearly defined experience, and so saying what is dead and what is alive, needs some exploration.
  13. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    Where, in the NT, do you find Pneuma ever translated as breath? I personally believe that even in the OT where the word for spirit/breath is RUWACH that we are talking about the breath of God which is spirit, and not air. When God gave the dead body of Adam the breath of God, God was not doing CPR on him. He was imparting the 'vital life force' of spirit which energized the body to come to 'life'. And then the muscles responded to the signals from the brain and Adam breathed. I know Genesis says Adam became a "living soul", or 'chay nephesh', but those same two Hebrew words are also translated as "living creatures" when talking about the creation of animals in the same chapter of Genesis. And in 'that regard' there is no difference between man or beast, all life comes from God.

    ECC 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath/ruwach; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

    God is not 'jealous over the air we breathe, he is jealous over our spirit' which is His IMAGE or substance. Our souls and our bodies are not made of 'the substance' of God. For "God is spirit". When God created man the Father was spirit, the Word was spirit, and the Holy Spirit was spirit. Therefore I always say; "I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I live in a body."

    JAM 4:5 Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us"?

    As I understand this subject James is translated correctly. James is talking about the saving of the soul which can not begin until one has first received the 'born again' saving of their spirit. And no where in scripture does it say God saves souls or Jesus saves souls. But James does tell us who does.

    JAM 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

    We are born with living spirits, but spirits which are prodigal from the Father. We are therefore as 'dead' in FELLOWSHIP with our heavenly Father, as the prodigal son was with his 'earthly' father.

    I first was introduced to the triparte man in the mid 70's and have studied this subject more in my life than probably any other subject. I also don't like long posts. I don't like reading them or answering them and I especially don't like writing them. And this post is already too much for me. So I'm just going to stop here, after addressing one more point you made.

    As I said earlier, I don't think so. And, as a physician, I really don't really agree physiologically with what you said here. Lots of people have stopped breathing, but they are not dead. People have even drowned and been under water for long times and still been resuscitated. The record is 66 minutes.

    An Analytical Look at Survivable Submersion Times

  14. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Thank you for sharing. I must apologize in that I wasn't trying to prove that people couldn't be resuscitated. I was making a generalization that when we aren't breathing, we no longer have life. While there may be resurrections and resuscitations, isn't it generally true that without the cardiorespiratory cycle, life cannot be sustained?

    There is something significant about God's Breath. Yes, it isn't just CPR. I don't disagree with you at all. I also agree that The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are Spirit.

    You said you don't believe the spirit in a human is really ever dead, but figuratively--like the prodigal--before the "born again saving". So, do you believe we are all already eternal creatures and the only thing to be determined is where we will spend it?

    With all the studies you have done, what do you believe is the significance of the soul? What purpose does it have? The verse I shared about God referring to His Soul, what do you think that means? How does the soul fit in--what is the benefit of it being saved?
  15. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    If you see the prodigal as a picture of the believer's life, who do you see the older son as--since all have sinned?
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    It is talking about how they went from being saved as a baby, then unsaved after they grew up and sinned willingly against God, and then they come home from their prodigal life of sin back to the everlasting Father through repentance (seeking forgiveness with the father). It could also refer to believers who backslide into sin (while still believing Jesus is their Savior) and then later came back to living for the Lord.

    This is one parable in a serious of 3 other parables with the theme of repentance (Which obviously deals with salvation). When the son came home (after his prodigal life) the father says that his son was DEAD and he is ALIVE AGAIN. This means he was dead spiritually and he is now alive again spiritually. This proves that sin can separate a person from GOD.

    The older son is representative of Israel and the prodigal son is representative of the Gentiles. The older son was angry when his brother was thrown a party. Paul says that the Gentiles were included to make Israel jealous of the salvation that they would obtain. Granted, not all Gentiles will be saved obviously. This is speaking in general terms here.

    Also, your phrase that all have sinned is not defined. While I believe we have all sinned as a part of our old life, it would not be correct to say that believers still continue in sin as a way of life. When you read Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10, you also have to read Romans 3:11, too. Unless of course you believe that believers today have no understanding and they do not seek after God.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  17. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    I guess I'm just a bit of a 'detail' guy....to a fault. I do agree with your 'generalization'. :oldthumbsup:

    I agree that the Son is all spirit again now. But I also think that the Word/spirit gave up equality with God/spirit when he became the "sinful flesh" natured body for the spirit of Christ to live in. But that's a whole other topic. And actually I'm leaving shortly for a men's retreat and won't be back here until Sunday...probably. I can, and 'might' cell phone something, but just prefer a computer for these interactions.

    I believe all spirits are eternal. For any spirit to be dead would be like saying let’s kill Casper.

    I think you defined it earlier, and I agree; It is the ‘mind will emotions and attitudes’ realm of man and God. IOW it is the 'brain functioning' for us. But I’m not sure about saying God has a ‘brain’ per say. I think 'going to heaven' comes from your spirit being born again. I think that you then begin working out the salvation of your soul for the rest of your life. That ‘salvation’ being the renewing of your old carnal minded way if thinking with the mind of Christ. The degree to which you “renew your mind” will determine what degree of glory your saved spiritual body will have in heaven.

    That’s about it for me Johnny. Heading to New Mexico.
  18. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

    United Kingdom
    I do wonder about the prodigal being a believer.

    How can one be without the Father and in rebellion and still saved?
    Outside the prodigal has nothing because they have spent it, and
    the Father and family have no obligation to fulfil to the son.

    For me this is obvious meaning. Yes you can walk away, but you are lost.
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Then you missed the details in Scripture that says that Jesus still has His physical body.

    "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

    "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. " (Revelation 1:18).

    Not true.

    6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:6-7).

    "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9).

    In fact, while Jesus did work miracles by the power of the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus (while His divine attribute of Omniscience was suppressed) also had power of His own as God during His Earthly ministry, too.

    #1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21).
    #2. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.
    #3. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19).
    #4. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6).
    #5 Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
    #6. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.
    #7. Jesus knew men's thoughts (Matthew 9:4) (Matthew 12:25) (Mark 2:8) (Luke 5:22) (Luke 6:8) (Luke 9:47) (Luke 24:38).
    #8. Jesus knew about the lives of others (John 2:24) (John 4:17-18) (John 4:29) (John 6:64).​

    While spirits may be eternal, God can surely destroy angels or the human existence even in spirit form. In fact, that is why a spirit or person can be said to be dead or alive spiritually. The destiny or fate of the spirit either leads to everlasting life in God's Kingdom or annihiation (destruction) in the Lake of Fire. For fires burn things up and they destroy things. That is what they do. The Lake of Fire is not like some fire here on this Earth. It will have the capacity to destroy both the physical and the spiritual.

    Take for example 1 Timothy 5:6, it says,
    "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

    So this believing widow who lives in pleasure (sin) is dead spiritually (her path of her spirit is faced with destruction in the Lake of Fire) while she yet still lives physically in her flesh and blood body. She could of course repent (ask the Lord's forgiveness) and forsake her evil ways (the fruits of repentance). This would then change the path or road her spirit is on.

    We cannot possibly know such things in regards to the detailed spiritual substance aspect of God and does it matter? We know God has a mind, will, and emotions (sort of similar to us) but the difference is that God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, perfect, holy, good, and sinless (in everything He does).

    Do you believe it is possible for a born again believer to be separated spiritually from God by just one grievous unrepentant sin like say murder?

    Have a good trip;
    And may God bless you greatly.
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Hence, why the parables says that he was "lost" and "found" two times.
    It also says two times that he was "dead" and is "alive again."
    This is clearly talking in spiritual terms and fits the theme of repentance in the other two parables in this one parable in a series of three parables on repentance (Seeking the Lord's forgiveness - which involves salvation). Belief Alone proponents or Eternal Security folk try to do back flip twists in trying to explain this one and it never makes any kind of sense.