Are True Apostles Still in Existence Today

Ignatius the Kiwi

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If Apostles were to exist today they must then have the same authority as the original apostles and ought to be followed. It would not be an option to ignore them since God would have especially placed them as leaders within the Church which we must listen to. Of course the problem with saying there are Apostles still around is that these Apostles would inevitably be self appointed and not in anyway connected with the Apostolic communion of the Church (we see this in Mormonism and some Pentecostal groups).

Apostles were clearly not the intended way God would lead his Church for the majority of it's existence, rather they were only necessary at it's inception. We can see this within History and how it is only recently people have begun to claim there are living Apostles.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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To be perfectly frank here, just because you haven't seen a "miracle" doesn't mean they don't happen daily.

I sometimes cringe when I see these YouTube healers that post 100's of videos of this or that. I mean, I am not knocking them for displaying their testimonies, but so many of those can be faked (and have been proven as such). Real miracle workers don't have time to tell someone to hold a camera and record this leg growing or whatever, that's not what the Spirit is about.

So yes, Apostle's can exist in today's age. I'll name just a couple I believe were Apostles:

Derek Prince
Smith Wigglesworth
John Lake
Torben Sondergaard
Francis Chan

Those are just a few...

Apostles aren't meant to be followed by anybody in the church, they are in the church to build the faith of believers and accelerate the spread of the gospel. I liken missionaries to Apostles, because often times, Apostles were sent (that is actually what it means) to areas for specific groups to receive ministry.
 
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Phil 1:21

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What miracles do they perform? Or is that not a requirement for Catholicism? (still trying to settle on some ground rules here :)

When I was a kid we had a priest who could make a whole lot of wine disappear. ^_^
 
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ViaCrucis

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"If" some of the "spiritual gifts" have not ceased, even with the completion of the New Testament, and without speaking of the specific gift of "speaking in tongues" how should we receive the teaching that apostles are still in existence today as well? My understanding is that an apostle in Jesus time on earth, was one that was a "sent one" as a representative of God, that had a message (the verbal message of the gospel and the N.T.), who was also giving supernatural gifts (the gift of miracles, the gift of knowledge, the gift of healings, etc.) as credentials to hearers/observers that he was indeed a messenger of God. My aim in this thread is not to cause division, we already have that. My aim is to understand how knowledgable people of the Scriptures can hold the view that true apostles still exist today. God bless.

The historic teaching of the Christian Church is that the apostolic ministry was retained in those whom the apostles ordained, bishops and presbyters--or pastors if one prefers. There's no historical evidence that there were more apostles following the early decades of the Church, there were no apostles in the 2nd or 3rd centuries for example. Where a person is called "apostle" following the apostolic period it is as an honorific, for example St. Patrick is given the honorific of "Apostle to the Irish", Sts. Cyril and Methodius are given the honorific of "Apostles to the Slavs", in other cases some have been given the honorific of "Equal-to-the-Apostles". These honorifics do not designate the person as an apostle proper. The apostolic period is considered to have ended with the death of John, who is traditionally believed to have died of natural causes around the end of the first century.

Modern so-called "apostles" are not apostles at all and their claims of apostolic authority is not only suspect, it is out-right false and to be rejected absolutely.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Root of Jesse

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That's because invisible miracles can be faked very easily. Jesus did Miracles that could be seen, and not to show off, but to make it clear who he was. We like to be clear on who we are dealing with when it comes to someone claiming to do, or supposedly doing miracles.
So did Jesus not chastise Thomas for only believing what he saw? Didn't Jesus tell Thomas "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe."?
Anyway, the first miracle you mention of the New Jerusalem touching earth...I don't understand?
Read Revelation. It's all about the New Jerusalem, and how we connect to the New Jerusalem in the Mass.
And on the bread and wine changed to the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, are you saying it's actually changed to physical flesh and blood? If so, isn't that something we would be able to see.
There are people who have seen it change into physical flesh and blood, but most of us are required to believe even though we haven't seen.
In all honestly these seem like something people want to see as miracles, when they are nothing of the sort, but I'll wait for your comment before I draw conclusion.
You're certainly free to believe or not. But not all miracles are visible ones.
 
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Greg Merrill

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To be perfectly frank here, just because you haven't seen a "miracle" doesn't mean they don't happen daily.

I sometimes cringe when I see these YouTube healers that post 100's of videos of this or that. I mean, I am not knocking them for displaying their testimonies, but so many of those can be faked (and have been proven as such). Real miracle workers don't have time to tell someone to hold a camera and record this leg growing or whatever, that's not what the Spirit is about.

So yes, Apostle's can exist in today's age. I'll name just a couple I believe were Apostles:

Derek Prince
Smith Wigglesworth
John Lake
Torben Sondergaard
Francis Chan

Those are just a few...

Apostles aren't meant to be followed by anybody in the church, they are in the church to build the faith of believers and accelerate the spread of the gospel. I liken missionaries to Apostles, because often times, Apostles were sent (that is actually what it means) to areas for specific groups to receive ministry.
Interesting. But just a note: Just being "sent" doesn't make one an apostle, or we would have a lot of naughty boys in their bedrooms that became apostles when their parents caught them in their naughtiness.
 
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Waggles

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Agreed. Now there was an Apostle for the latter-rain.
I have a 1947 biography of Wigglesworth, and in reading his life story there really are so many
comparisons to the missionary journeys of Paul the apostle.
Also have a wonderful book on the life of John G. Lake and with many of his sermons.

Apostles do not preach a new revelation nor a new gospel - they preach the same gospel espoused
by Jesus and the first century Church.

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God
the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for
me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which
was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:1-3
 
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Kenny'sID

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So did Jesus not chastise Thomas for only believing what he saw? Didn't Jesus tell Thomas "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe."?

You cherry picked the scripture, that has nothing to do with this, it's talking about believing in Jesus, not in general at all. It worries me you would do that.

Read Revelation. It's all about the New Jerusalem, and how we connect to the New Jerusalem in the Mass.

I know what the New Jerusalem is, I was asking about the Miracle and how that worked. You gave no specifics on how that was a miracle.

There are people who have seen it change into physical flesh and blood, but most of us are required to believe even though we haven't seen.

I bet they are. :)

You're certainly free to believe or not.

Seems very shaky to me, think I'll go with the "not" option.

I would have to be a fool to believe a miracle was produced by "anyone" that merely says they can, but then tells me I cannot watch that miracle take place and I just have to believe it did, or that they can do miracles without proof, especially these days. If I did, I'd be the most scammable person on the planet, I mean just the idea has trouble written all over it.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Interesting. But just a note: Just being "sent" doesn't make one an apostle, or we would have a lot of naughty boys in their bedrooms that became apostles when their parents caught them in their naughtiness.

Does God send someone to do "naughty" things?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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The historic teaching of the Christian Church is that the apostolic ministry was retained in those whom the apostles ordained, bishops and presbyters--or pastors if one prefers. There's no historical evidence that there were more apostles following the early decades of the Church, there were no apostles in the 2nd or 3rd centuries for example. Where a person is called "apostle" following the apostolic period it is as an honorific, for example St. Patrick is given the honorific of "Apostle to the Irish", Sts. Cyril and Methodius are given the honorific of "Apostles to the Slavs", in other cases some have been given the honorific of "Equal-to-the-Apostles". These honorifics do not designate the person as an apostle proper. The apostolic period is considered to have ended with the death of John, who is traditionally believed to have died of natural causes around the end of the first century.

Modern so-called "apostles" are not apostles at all and their claims of apostolic authority is not only suspect, it is out-right false and to be rejected absolutely.

-CryptoLutheran

It makes me sick These so called "Apostles" and "prophets". I am a Charismatic believer and such nonsense makes all us Charismatics look silly and foolish. I can promise you we are not all so headstrong and egocentric. Not to mention unbiblical...
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Agreed. Now there was an Apostle for the latter-rain.
I have a 1947 biography of Wigglesworth, and in reading his life story there really are so many
comparisons to the missionary journeys of Paul the apostle.
Also have a wonderful book on the life of John G. Lake and with many of his sermons.

Apostles do not preach a new revelation nor a new gospel - they preach the same gospel espoused
by Jesus and the first century Church.

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God
the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for
me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which
was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:1-3

My favorite story of his was when he brought a dead person back to life.. said that it scared those who saw it so bad they wouldn't look at him for days!

My favorite wigglesworth quote is "I never pray more than 10 minutes but never go longer than 10 minutes without praying."
 
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Greg Merrill

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Does God send someone to do "naughty" things?
I didn't say the boy were sent to do naughty things, but was inferring that they were SENT to their rooms, but that did not make them apostles. Just trying to be a little humorous.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I didn't say the boy were sent to do naughty things, but was inferring that they were SENT to their rooms, but that did not make them apostles. Just trying to be a little humorous.

I got ya! I missed the humor of it. My apologies :)
 
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Greg Merrill

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I got ya! I missed the humor of it. My apologies :)
No problem, except that is one of the problems with just reading on line, or even reading the Bible; we can't hear the tone of voice, or see the expression on the writer's face, and we sometimes misinterpret the message.
 
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least

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"If" some of the "spiritual gifts" have not ceased, even with the completion of the New Testament, and without speaking of the specific gift of "speaking in tongues" how should we receive the teaching that apostles are still in existence today as well? My understanding is that an apostle in Jesus time on earth, was one that was a "sent one" as a representative of God, that had a message (the verbal message of the gospel and the N.T.), who was also giving supernatural gifts (the gift of miracles, the gift of knowledge, the gift of healings, etc.) as credentials to hearers/observers that he was indeed a messenger of God. My aim in this thread is not to cause division, we already have that. My aim is to understand how knowledgable people of the Scriptures can hold the view that true apostles still exist today. God bless.
In a general sense of the word, an apostle is one who is sent as a delegate, or messenger. As such, they represent the authority of the one who sent them. Note what the Lord says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him," and then, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me." (John 13:16 and 20).

The word messenger is the same Greek word as apostle. Jesus speaking of those who receive his apostles receiving him demonstrates the authority they had from him. They were his chosen delegates!

There are several mentions of apostles in the New Testament that are not referring to the Twelve. Barnabas, Timothy, and Silvanus, among others, are referred to as apostles. Are these men any different than the Twelve? I believe so and here's why:

Luke 6:12-16. In this passage, Jesus spent the night in prayer, "And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles." (see the passage for the list of names). Out of all the disciples, the Lord specifically chose twelve to be apostles. [

Of course, Luke's gospel is only the first in a two volume set! Volume two is commonly referred to as The Acts of the Apostles (although I would argue it is more so The Acts of God's Holy Spirit). Now, who is Luke referring to? Again, it is the twelve,

Acts 1:1-3. "In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God."

Again, Luke is speaking of a specific group of men, and here, he emphasized that Christ appeared to them many times. However, there were now only eleven apostles, because Judas had betrayed him. Peter declared that someone must be chosen to take Judas' office of apostleship. So after prayer, they were led to choose Matthias as the twelfth apostle. The main criteria for this selection was that it had to be someone who had been with them the whole time of Jesus' ministry, starting from the Lord's baptism all the way to his ascension. In other words, he had to be an eyewitness of the ministry of Jesus! (Acts 1:21-26)

Finally, there is one Apostle who came along "as one who is abnormally born" (1 Corinthians 15:8). Paul's conversion is recorded in Acts 9, where he is met by the Lord on his way to Damascus. Through numerous explanations of his testimony in the New Testament, we find that Paul spent additional time with the Lord, and he went on to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, equal in the office of Apostle as Peter and the twelve (Galatians 2:9).

I don't believe that Matthias should be rejected as the twelfth apostle as some do. No, he isn't mentioned again from that point, but neither are many of the others. Paul admits that he is a special case, and the fact that he is given the distinction as the apostle to the Gentiles doesn't take away the significance of the original twelve, including Matthias.

Finally, to set the case in concrete that these men were chosen specifically from among all disciples, we see in Ephesians 2:20-21 that the Church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord." Furthermore, in Revelation 20:14, "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

These twelve apostles (and how Paul fits in the Revelation passage, I do not know) were specifically chosen for a specific purpose. As the prophets gave us the Old Testament revelation of God's word, so have the Apostle's given us the New Testament. They were proven by the power of God's Spirit in their ministry. And it is by their testimony that we have God's word passed to us today!
 
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Root of Jesse

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You cherry picked the scripture, that has nothing to do with this, it's talking about believing in Jesus, not in general at all. It worries me you would do that.



I know what the New Jerusalem is, I was asking about the Miracle and how that worked. You gave no specifics on how that was a miracle.



I bet they are. :)



Seems very shaky to me, think I'll go with the "not" option.

I would have to be a fool to believe a miracle was produced by "anyone" that merely says they can, but then tells me I cannot watch that miracle take place and I just have to believe it did, or that they can do miracles without proof, especially these days. If I did, I'd be the most scammable person on the planet, I mean just the idea has trouble written all over it.
But it's not "anyone" who says they can. It's Jesus who says they can. Therefore, we are fools for Christ, you, admittedly...
 
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Greg Merrill

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In a general sense of the word, an apostle is one who is sent as a delegate, or messenger. As such, they represent the authority of the one who sent them. Note what the Lord says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him," and then, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me." (John 13:16 and 20).

The word messenger is the same Greek word as apostle. Jesus speaking of those who receive his apostles receiving him demonstrates the authority they had from him. They were his chosen delegates!

There are several mentions of apostles in the New Testament that are not referring to the Twelve. Barnabas, Timothy, and Silvanus, among others, are referred to as apostles. Are these men any different than the Twelve? I believe so and here's why:

Luke 6:12-16. In this passage, Jesus spent the night in prayer, "And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles." (see the passage for the list of names). Out of all the disciples, the Lord specifically chose twelve to be apostles. [

Of course, Luke's gospel is only the first in a two volume set! Volume two is commonly referred to as The Acts of the Apostles (although I would argue it is more so The Acts of God's Holy Spirit). Now, who is Luke referring to? Again, it is the twelve,

Acts 1:1-3. "In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God."

Again, Luke is speaking of a specific group of men, and here, he emphasized that Christ appeared to them many times. However, there were now only eleven apostles, because Judas had betrayed him. Peter declared that someone must be chosen to take Judas' office of apostleship. So after prayer, they were led to choose Matthias as the twelfth apostle. The main criteria for this selection was that it had to be someone who had been with them the whole time of Jesus' ministry, starting from the Lord's baptism all the way to his ascension. In other words, he had to be an eyewitness of the ministry of Jesus! (Acts 1:21-26)

Finally, there is one Apostle who came along "as one who is abnormally born" (1 Corinthians 15:8). Paul's conversion is recorded in Acts 9, where he is met by the Lord on his way to Damascus. Through numerous explanations of his testimony in the New Testament, we find that Paul spent additional time with the Lord, and he went on to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, equal in the office of Apostle as Peter and the twelve (Galatians 2:9).

I don't believe that Matthias should be rejected as the twelfth apostle as some do. No, he isn't mentioned again from that point, but neither are many of the others. Paul admits that he is a special case, and the fact that he is given the distinction as the apostle to the Gentiles doesn't take away the significance of the original twelve, including Matthias.

Finally, to set the case in concrete that these men were chosen specifically from among all disciples, we see in Ephesians 2:20-21 that the Church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord." Furthermore, in Revelation 20:14, "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

These twelve apostles (and how Paul fits in the Revelation passage, I do not know) were specifically chosen for a specific purpose. As the prophets gave us the Old Testament revelation of God's word, so have the Apostle's given us the New Testament. They were proven by the power of God's Spirit in their ministry. And it is by their testimony that we have God's word passed to us today!
So you don't come out and plainly say Apostles no longer exist today, or they do. Can you tell us plainly if they do? Yes, or no? Humbly, and respectfully asked.
 
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least

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So you don't come out and plainly say Apostles no longer exist today, or they do. Can you tell us plainly if they do? Yes, or no? Humbly, and respectfully asked.
My apologies for the confusion. No. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus selected the twelve for a special apostolic ministry: laying the foundation of his Church. Were others called apostles? Yes, but only in the general sense of the word.

A modern example from a Southern Baptist perspective: when we have a convention every church is allowed to send messengers (apostles) which represent their local church. While they act with the authority of their local church, they are not considered as part of the apostolic ministry.

Again, sorry for the confusion.
 
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Root of Jesse

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My apologies for the confusion. No. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus selected the twelve for a special apostolic ministry: laying the foundation of his Church. Were others called apostles? Yes, but only in the general sense of the word.

A modern example from a Southern Baptist perspective: when we have a convention every church is allowed to send messengers (apostles) which represent their local church. While they act with the authority of their local church, they are not considered as part of the apostolic ministry.

Again, sorry for the confusion.
Well, what do you make of the apparent necessity the apostles felt to replace Judas?
 
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