Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

[Saint Steven]

But God will not continue to cast pearls before the swine leaving no other option except that they should face everlasting punishment since they have resolved to be everlastingly unrepentant. The scripture is very clear about this and there is no way of getting around it.

Are you sure?
What do you make of this?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Saint Steven]

But not because they have any real desire to devote themselves to Christ, which is why they will remain where they will remain.

Since when is that a requirement for salvation, and how are such things measured?

Did you have a "real desire" to follow Christ? (who can say?) Could your desire have been MORE "real"? (I suppose so) Was it real enough to save you? (who can say?) Was the desire "real" at all? (who knows?) How are such things measured?

Better to measure our salvation by the only thing we can measure, the finished work of Christ - ON OUR BEHALF.

 

[Saint Steven]

Then your problem is with your Maker whom you seek to mold into your own image rather than be conformed to His.

On the contrary.
I claim that God is love. What are you claiming? (that he hates his enemies)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Really?

If you had the choice between going to the gas chamber at Auschwitz or the horrors of an eternal hell, which would you choose?

Even the worst of humanity pales in comparison to what you are accusing God of. (for shame)

 

[Saint Steven]

Those who would deny that there is eternal punishment for the wicked would rather make them feel comfortable in their sin rather than urge them to repent. They would rather call God cruel for exacting justice upon the unrepentant than to turn away from their sin. They would rather be gods themselves than to submit to the only one true God.

That is a false, unfounded and completely inappropriate accusation.

 

[Saint Steven]

Then your problem is with your Maker whom you seek to mold into your own image rather than be conformed to His.

So you are accusing me of not being conformed to the image of my maker? On what basis do make such an outlandish claim?

 

[Saint Steven]

Nevertheless, the denial of eternal torment takes away incentive for the lost soul to repent.

Oh, is that the "real desire to devote themselves to Christ" you speak of in your post quoted below?

Contenders Edge said: ↑
But not because they have any real desire to devote themselves to Christ, which is why they will remain where they will remain.

 

[Saint Steven]

And in the process lead multitudes into a false sense of security and comfort in the very sin that will keep them out of the Kingdom for all eternity.

What do you believe is the basis for salvation then?

 

[Der Alte]

On the contrary.
I claim that God is love. What are you claiming? (that he hates his enemies)
Saint Steven said: ↑
Really?
If you had the choice between going to the gas chamber at Auschwitz or the horrors of an eternal hell, which would you choose?
Even the worst of humanity pales in comparison to what you are accusing God of. (for shame)

Yet Jesus said that many would go into "eternal"[not that age during nonsense] punishment."[and kolasis does not mean correction."
In these verses is this God showing love?

Genesis 19:24-25, Genesis 7:23, Numbers 21:3, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, Deuteronomy 7:2, Deuteronomy 32:25, Jeremiah 13:14
Genesis 19:24-25 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Deuteronomy 20:16-17 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
Jeremiah 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

​

 

[Basil the Great]

I recall that Pope John Paul II, now a canonized saint by the RCC, stated that the Scripture's description of Hell being a place of torment should not be taken literally. Now, I do not believe that he doubted the eternity of Hell, but it appears that he did doubt the view that it is a place of torture or torment. We can only hope that he is correct, especially if Hell exists and it is forever. As for myself, I remain undecided on the subject, but I tend to think that John Paul is correct. It is hard to believe that God would torture souls forever for something that they did or did not do for maybe 70 years. Perhaps Hell is simply a dark and lonely place? Perhaps only the worst of the worst go to Hell? However, we cannot know for certain and therefore, at the very least, the Bible serves as a warning to us all.

 

[Saint Steven]

I recall that Pope John Paul II, now a canonized saint by the RCC, stated that the Scripture's description of Hell being a place of torment should not be taken literally. Now, I do not believe that he doubted the eternity of Hell, but it appears that he did doubt the view that it is a place of torture or torment. We can only hope that he is correct, especially if Hell exists and it is forever. As for myself, I remain undecided on the subject, but I tend to think that John Paul is correct. It is hard to believe that God would torture souls forever for something that they did or did not do for maybe 70 years. Perhaps Hell is simply a dark and lonely place? Perhaps only the worst of the worst go to Hell? However, we cannot know for certain and therefore, at the very least, the Bible serves as a warning to us all.

Good info. Thanks.

I have to ask myself, "What business is God in?"
Is he in the business of healing our brokenness? Or in the business of magnifying it for all of eternity?

And what rational mind can accept that after the aforementioned 70 years of human life, with all its failings, is somehow deserving of everlasting torment and hopeless separation from God? (a God who created us for fellowship with him) To what end? Who, or what, is the victor in that scenario?

Only a human could say that eternal torment is deserved. Further compounding our absolute fleshly depravity.

 

[Der Alte]

...
Only a human could say that eternal torment is deserved. Further compounding our absolute fleshly depravity.

If this is true why would Jesus teach about it. UR-ites will try to tell us none of these verses mean what they say.
Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” "Kolasis" means "punishment" NOT "correction."
.....The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[Saint Steven]

I recall that Pope John Paul II, now a canonized saint by the RCC, stated that the Scripture's description of Hell being a place of torment should not be taken literally. Now, I do not believe that he doubted the eternity of Hell, but it appears that he did doubt the view that it is a place of torture or torment. We can only hope that he is correct, especially if Hell exists and it is forever. ...

So, he believed in eternal separation from God, but not eternal torment in a literal sense?
Meaning the torment is real, but it is not physical?

I can appreciate those that struggle with the concept of hell. I worry most about those who have absolutely no issues with it. Can a person like that really believe they are manifesting the fruit of the Spirit in their lives?

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

 

[Saint Steven]

... Only a human could say that eternal torment is deserved. Further compounding our absolute fleshly depravity.

The spirit behind such thoughts is obvious to me. Hell is good for nothing except to steal and kill and destroy for all eternity. Hell is not the "life to the full" that Christ came to give us. Did Christ fail to do what he came here for? (nope)

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

 

[nolidad]

Search = "eternal torment"

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There is nothing in Scripture speaking of aidios basanismos or aidios basanos!

Still straining at gnats so you can swallow the camels I see!

Matthew 25:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As I taught you in another thread , eternal and everlasting are the same greek word aionios and arew constructed the same.
Speech: Adjective

Case: Accusative

Number: Singular

Gender: Feminine

But I have come to learn that when you don't like what is written on the lines of Gods Inspired Word- you find whatever doctrine you wish by reading "in between the lines".

 

[nolidad]

Nevertheless, the denial of eternal torment takes away incentive for the lost soul to repent.

Well I doubt that! God has to lead a person to the place of repentance. Our sowing of seeds is just giving out the word of God that God can use to produce saving faith.

 

[FineLinen]

Still straining at gnats so you can swallow the camels I see!

Matthew 25:46 King James Version (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As I taught you in another thread , eternal and everlasting are the same greek word aionios and arew constructed the same.
Speech: Adjective

Case: Accusative

Number: Singular

Gender: Feminine

But I have come to learn that when you don't like what is written on the lines of Gods Inspired Word- you find whatever doctrine you wish by reading "in between the lines".

Much thanks Noli for teaching me (lol).

The fact, yes fact, is aionios and aidios are not, repeat NOT, the same word in koine!

Aionios is rooted in aion which is totally grounded in the aions (plural).

Aidios is found exactly twice in Canon and is the ONLY word that can truly be translated as "eternal" since it is the Realm of the Aidios God who is the Beginning & Ending of the ta pante!

 

[Der Alte]

Are you sure?
What do you make of this?
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

In Rom 11:32 the word translated "may have mercy" is in the subjunctive mood which is the mood of possibility and potentiality.
If Jesus had intended to say that God would definitely have mercy on all He would have used the indicative mood as He did in Matt 5:7 and Mar 5:19

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.[Future passive indicative]
Mark 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion [AAI]on thee.[Aorist active indicative.]​

Like it or not God's mercy has conditions.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
​

 

[Der Alte]

...

...

Much thanks Noli for teaching me (lol).
The fact, yes fact, is aionios and aidios are not, repeat NOT, the same word in koine!
Aionios is rooted in aion which is totally grounded in the aions (plural).
Aidios is found exactly twice in Canon and is the ONLY word that can truly be translated as "eternal" since it is the Realm of the Aidios God who is the Beginning & Ending of the ta pante!

...

Nonsense!
…..Some people claim that αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios cannot mean eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer to something which cannot be eternal. Jesus used the word "aionios" twenty nine times. He never uses it to refer to something which is not eternal.
In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses cited:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36 , John 4:14, John 6:27

[1] Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2] Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]​

In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4] 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5] 2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6] Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7] 1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9] Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12] 1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[Character limit. Continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Post #538 continued]

[13] 1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14] Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life. ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15] 1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16] Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. ​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19] John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20] Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21] Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24] John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25] John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death." ​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

"The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally."​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

[Post #538 continued]

[13] 1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14] Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life. ​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15] 1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16] Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. ​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19] John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20] Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[21] Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24] John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25] John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death." ​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

"The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally."​

This is all just to read scripture in search of a sword-spitting saviour.

The letter kills, only the Spirit gives life. I haven't been killed by any letters recently, literally Der Alter. Idk if the govt has stats on how many ppl each year are killed by the letter 'Q'. Perhaps it's in the Qabbalah, who cares.

It seems like I've entered the Twilight Zone being a born-again Christian, finding those who ought to be wisest in the teachings of grace (ie Christians) actually in general go the other way, and deny grace outright in favour of a petty and vindictive deity who gleefully tortures the innocent forever for the least infraction.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (Gal 5:22-3)

So I'm sorry to have to disabuse you of the notion that a 16 year old rape victim suicide can look forward to eternity roasting on a spit courtesy of the HS, der Alter. I pray that you'll do some introspection so that you might see this outcome (which is necessary in your eschatology) is not of God, it is indeed the opposite. It is the letter which kills, it is of he who comes to steal and kill and destroy. It is diabolically unjust in its portrayal of God and its normative effects on the believer and unbeliever alike. It opens the door wide for satan. Consider the outcomes der Alter, totally twisted and messed up. Now consider God's character. I invite you to compare and contrast.