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Featured Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Basil the Great, Mar 17, 2020.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Our God is a consuming Fire

    Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

    How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

    “Life”…Isa. 4:5

    “Purification”…Matt. 3:3

    “Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

    “Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

    And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

    And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

    Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

    Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

    And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

    Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

    When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

    Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

    The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

    Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

    It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

    So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

    Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

    Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

    And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

    Fire Is The Portion Of All

    These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

    Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

    The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

    When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

    "Behold, I make all things new." -Christ Triumphant-

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  2. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    A clear example of quoting scripture out-of-context trying to support a false teaching.
    Revelation 21:4-8
    4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Although God said “no more death” vs. 4 “I make all things new” vs. 5 in vs. 8 eight groups of people are cast into the lake of fire, which is still “the second death.”
    Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” He does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall inherit NOT all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”


     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  3. Religiot

    Religiot Member

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    Brother, why don't you believe in death?

    I mean actual death, the cessation of life.

    Sincerely, brother, why don't you believe in death?
     
  4. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Are you talking to me? How many times did I mention death in my post?
     
  5. Religiot

    Religiot Member

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    No, not at all.

    I quoted the person to whom I was responding.

    PS: I don't usually read other posts apart from the original post: I simply respond to the replies addressed to me, because of time.
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I believe in the One who eats death, ALL thanantos. That One is the at-one-ment of Abba's reconciliation for the good, bad & ugly.

    What I believe =

    I believe
     
  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    My apologies. Some posts don't show up in my feed.
     
  8. Religiot

    Religiot Member

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    What do you believe death is?
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What death is NOT = aidios kolasis.

    What death is = the wages of sin = opsonion hamartia thanantos.

    Note:

    The wages of sin is not aidios punishment doomed to hell (s)! !
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
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  10. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    Was John the Baptist talking of the fire of life when he said of Jesus:

    he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Lk 3:16b-17)

    Baptism of fire which burns up the chaff. Hm, could he be talking about the purificatory experience of amazing grace? Surely not.

    Ah, the ol' fire o' death routine, eh? If I recall correctly, it's death and hades that get cast into the fire, not life. You can't beat satan by the power o' satan. The fire IS life abundant, that's what kills death. Grace is the perfect antidote and restorative.

    Right. The truth burns the wicked as fire, but is as life-giving water to the saved. Why Ezekiel sees the river as water, and John as fire - they're seeing the same thing. What a great mystery this is!

    Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. (Is 6:5-7)

    If one burning coal can purge the prophet's sin, how much more full immersion in the fire from whence it came? Do you feel the hot coals being heaped upon your objections, my friend?

    The pattern is God giveth, man fumbleth, God warneth, man ignoreth, woe attendeth, God delivereth. Restoration is the endgame brother. His Salvation is the Omega Plan. What's the point of having a saviour otherwise lol?

    Bring out a people who have eyes but are blind, and who have ears but are deaf. (Is 43:7)

    Yes, but He's not going to do it, because He loves you, He counts every hair on our stubborn heads.

    Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. (Mt 10:31)

    The teaching is don't fear man, fear God cause He can do worse but He won't, however, don't think there won't be consequences if you don't. Clear as mud? It's perfect really, praise the Lord.

    It's Gehenna, not Hell as we know it. Jesus works to reclaim it from the political grip of the Pharisees (then and now!) and teach us that yes, we want to avoid that fire, but it's there ultimately for our correction/ purification, because God is for us not against us.
     
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  11. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nevertheless, the denial of eternal torment takes away incentive for the lost soul to repent.
     
  12. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And in the process lead multitudes into a false sense of security and comfort in the very sin that will keep them out of the Kingdom for all eternity.
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Nonsense! ! !

    The lost do not repent on the nasty dogma of unending terror!

    We come to Him as an outcome of His call, come unto Me all you that labour and are heavy laden.

     
  14. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually, we DO decide to follow Christ when we answer His call. My search query did yield results of "eternal torment" in both English and Greek. I have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance by my side. Apparently that must be something you do not have.
     
  15. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They repent out of the reverent fear of God. Why is it throughout the entire scriptures we are called upon to not be afraid of man, but to fear God? It is because it is God who issues the final judgment. That is why.
     
  16. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But God will not continue to cast pearls before the swine leaving no other option except that they should face everlasting punishment since they have resolved to be everlastingly unrepentant. The scripture is very clear about this and there is no way of getting around it.
     
  17. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But not because they have any real desire to devote themselves to Christ, which is why they will remain where they will remain.
     
  18. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then your problem is with your Maker whom you seek to mold into your own image rather than be conformed to His.
     
  19. Contenders Edge

    Contenders Edge Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First of all, humanity is far below the level of God. Those who would deny that there is eternal punishment for the wicked would rather make them feel comfortable in their sin rather than urge them to repent. They would rather call God cruel for exacting justice upon the unrepentant than to turn away from their sin. They would rather be gods themselves than to submit to the only one true God.
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I am thrilled you have a Strong's by your side. It surely will carry your life into fresh horizons in Him (lol)

    My young friend, follow the bouncing ball qualification of discipleship.

    You >> did NOT > > choose Me, > > I chose you.
     
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