Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

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Der Alte

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I'm not accusing God of that, but you are attempting to make God out to be like a man because of your reliance on a flawed understanding of justice. His justice standard is much higher than ours and therefore, we cannot call Him unfair for sentencing the unrepentant to eternal damnation which in all actuality, they are making that choice for themselves when they refuse to receive the forgiveness offered them.
If they refuse to repent in life, they never will in death under any given circumstance and what wickedness they held to in life, they will carry with them in death. God cannot allow a place for that in His Kingdom.
The early church clearly understood this.
Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).


 
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FineLinen

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But not everyone receives that love, light, and Spirit. Many reject it and refuse to be persuaded otherwise. Therefore, God grants them their wish and they are sent to a place that is away from His presence and full of torment.

Nonsense! Utter nonsense!


The Will of all wee wills has centered His Plan in Himself. He is the Ending as He is the Beginning, the Source Guide, Goal of the all/ ta pante.

The Inescapable Love Of God

Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition

http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/chapter3.pdf

http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/chapter5.pdf

http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/Chapter11.pdf

iu
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Nonsense! Utter nonsense!
The Will of all wee wills has centered His Plan in Himself. He is the Ending as He is the Beginning, the Source Guide, Goal of the all/ ta pante.
The Inescapable Love Of God
Thomas Talbot - The Inescapable Love of God.
No, zero, none scripture but you quote Manning and Talbot as if they were saints and whatever they scribble is scripture.
 
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nolidad

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The Athanasian Creed clearly says that belief in eternal punishment is a requirement for salvation. Said Creed has been accepted in the past by the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church and the Lutheran Church. Where does this leave Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans who simply cannot profess a belief in eternal punishment, as well as all other Christians who in good conscience, are unable to confess such a belief?

I am reminded of a Lutheran service that I attended 30 years ago in a Midwestern suburban community. That Sunday there was a guest pastor and he chose to use the Athanasian Creed. The congregation was reading the Creed aloud together, but when the time came to read the line about eternal punishment, 95+% of the congregation went silent and refused to read said line aloud.

No1 One does snot have to believe in the fact of eternal torment in the lake of fire to be saved! It matters not what a church says, but what Scripture says.

With that being said, whenever we deny clear teachings of Scripture we handicap our walk with God and make ourselves that much less available to HIm!
 
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FineLinen

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No1 One does snot have to believe in the fact of eternal torment in the lake of fire to be saved! It matters not what a church says, but what Scripture says.

With that being said, whenever we deny clear teachings of Scripture we handicap our walk with God and make ourselves that much less available to HIm!


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There is nothing in Scripture speaking of aidios basanismos or aidios basanos!
 
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The early church clearly understood this.
Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).



It has been understood like that since day one. It seems like it has only been in recent history that that we are witnessing an increasing number of those within the Church who deny eternal punishment.
 
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Contenders Edge

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Nonsense! Utter nonsense!


The Will of all wee wills has centered His Plan in Himself. He is the Ending as He is the Beginning, the Source Guide, Goal of the all/ ta pante.

The Inescapable Love Of God

Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition

http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/chapter3.pdf

http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/chapter5.pdf

http://www.thomastalbott.com/pdf/Chapter11.pdf

iu


But that doesn't mean that everyone wants to follow His will or be a part of it.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Search = "eternal torment"
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Please modify your query and try again.
There is nothing in Scripture speaking of aidios basanismos or aidios basanos!
The deliberate misrepresentation of scripture which deceives and leads people to the eternal punishment you falsely claim does not exist.
See my post [#481] above.
The Greek word κολασιν/kolasin correctly translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 occurs one other time in the NT, 1 John 4:18.

1 Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασιν/kolasin] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
UR-ites wrongly want to argue that κολασιν/kolasin means correction and never means "punishment." But note this verse says that he that has fear κολασιν/kolasin is not made perfect, is not corrected.
 
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Der Alte

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It has been understood like that since day one. It seems like it has only been in recent history that that we are witnessing an increasing number of those within the Church who deny eternal punishment.
This is a logical fallacy, "appeal to popularity." The number of people who believe in a certain thing does not determine that it is correct. We see an increasing number of people who believe that if a person steals their right hand should be chopped off and that people who don't believe as they do should be beheaded. There are about 1.8 billion people who believe that.
 
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FineLinen

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But that doesn't mean that everyone wants to follow His will or be a part of it.

Following the Lord Jesus Christ begins in Him. We do NOT decide to follow Jesus! He calls, and that mighty call results in being part of Him & His enterprises.

I repeat:

Search = "eternal torment"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your query and try again.

There is nothing in Scripture speaking of aidios basanismos or aidios basanos!
 
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Basil the Great

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It has been understood like that since day one. It seems like it has only been in recent history that that we are witnessing an increasing number of those within the Church who deny eternal punishment.
Not only that, but more than likely, the percentage of those who deny or at least doubt the eternal torment doctrine will probably increase all the more in coming years.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
I repeat:
Search = "eternal torment"
Your search query has yielded no results.
Please modify your query and try again.
There is nothing in Scripture speaking of aidios basanismos or aidios basanos!
No matter how many times it is proven from scripture, alone, that this is patently wrong you continue to post it.
The Greek word κολασιν/kolasin, correctly translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 occurs one other time in the NT in 1 John 4:18.

1 Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασιν/kolasin] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Note, the one who has fear/kolasin is not made perfect, is not corrected.
There is one thing correct about this argument the phrase "eternal torment" does not occur in the NY but the phrase "eternal punishment" does.
 
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FineLinen

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Not only that, but more than likely, the percentage of those who deny or at least doubt the eternal torment doctrine will probably increase all the more in coming years.

Goody!

Rise to the challenge Basil: show us one single passage of Canon speaking of of aidios basanismos or aidios basano!
 
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Saint Steven

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His justice standard is much higher than ours...
Not by your definition. And not by God's definition either.
We are told that it is perfect godly behavior to love our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-48)
What do you claim God will do to his enemies? (burn them forever with no hope of escape) You make God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax collector.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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Saint Steven

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If they refuse to repent in life, they never will in death under any given circumstance and what wickedness they held to in life, they will carry with them in death. God cannot allow a place for that in His Kingdom.
Seriously?

Imagine being the worst sinner imaginable.
Now imagine what hell would REALLY be like. How long would it take you to get the message?
Maybe all of ten seconds.
 
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I'm not accusing God of that, but you are attempting to make God out to be like a man because of your reliance on a flawed understanding of justice. His justice standard is much higher than ours and therefore, we cannot call Him unfair for sentencing the unrepentant to eternal damnation which in all actuality, they are making that choice for themselves when they refuse to receive the forgiveness offered them.

If they refuse to repent in life, they never will in death under any given circumstance and what wickedness they held to in life, they will carry with them in death. God cannot allow a place for that in His Kingdom.
So long as the popular creed and the Bible are held together, so long must this system of untruth continue. We pray to "our Father," to Whom in the next breath we assign acts towards His own children more cruel than any to which the worst earthly parent would stoop. We thus degrade the Godhead below, FAR BELOW, THE LEVEL OF HUMANITY. What is left for us to worship if the truth be a lie - if love essential be cruelty itself - if God be that, which I dare not write? Nor is this all. Having thus assigned to God acts of infinite cruelty, the popular creed goes on to assure us of His tenderness that never wearies - His love that never fails. What falsehood, what cruel mockery is this, coming from those who really mean, that this unfailing, eternal Love watches to all eternity, callous and unsympathising, the undying evil, the endless agony of its own children.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine
 
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Saint Steven

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His justice standard is much higher than ours...
Really?

If you had the choice between going to the gas chamber at Auschwitz or the horrors of an eternal hell, which would you choose?

Even the worst of humanity pales in comparison to what you are accusing God of. (for shame)
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Goody!
Rise to the challenge Basil: show us one single passage of Canon speaking of of aidios basanismos or aidios basano!
No matter how many times it is proven to you from scripture, alone, that this is patently wrong you continue to post it.
The Greek word κολασιν/kolasin, correctly translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 occurs one other time in the NT in 1 John 4:18.

1 Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασιν/kolasin] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Note, the one who has fear/kolasin is not made perfect, is not corrected.
There is one thing correct about this argument the phrase "eternal torment" does not occur in the NY but the phrase "eternal punishment" does.
 
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Religiot

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Thanks you for keeping an open mind, and I'm pleased we have our humanity and love of the truth in common.



These are warnings directed (at least principally) at believers. The Kingdom of Heaven of course has certain entry conditions, as Revelation teaches that the name must be written in the Lamb's Book of Life. But the pearly gates stand ever-open, and the lake of fire outside is fed by the issue from the throne, it is the purifying theion of Lamb's blood in which robes are washed, the flesh cleansed of the disease of sin, where overcoming of blindness and sin takes place, the dead restored to life by fiery baptismal immersion in the life of Christ, the Great Physician's ultimate remedy against sin, death and hell.

I imagine it's no fun to saunter up to judgment with a conviction that you've 'made the cut for Team Jesus', only to be told you've been barking up the wrong tree, as it were. 'Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Humiliating and terrifying when it suddenly hits home that your ship's been scuttled and all hope is to be abandoned. You leave, head bowed and with a wooden gait, hearing the rejoicing and festivities inside, left with only a dread and certainty of eternal torment and doom ahead. Wailing and gnashing - why not me, unfair!

Few are chosen to go straight in. Most have sins, strongholds that we're yet to overcome. The flesh wars against the spirit, our frame is but dust after all. Stamped 'Purification required', and sent out to overcome, but with the ongoing encouragement of the Spirit and the Bride, Come on you can do it, wash your robes and come take the free gift of living water (Rev 22).

Look at Ezekiel's Millennial Temple vision especially Ez 47:1-10. The stream issues from the temple and swells into a mighty river, cascading into the Dead Sea and bringing everything to life.

It shall be that fishermen will stand by it from En Gedi to En Eglaim; they will be places for spreading their nets. Their fish will be of the same kinds as the fish of the Great Sea, exceedingly many. (47:10)

Fishers of men, the job description doesn't change.

It is the vision that John shares in Rev 21-22, but with fire not water:

In the middle of its street and of the river, on this side and on that side, was a tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2)

The Lake of Fire gives life, the nations repent and come for healing. Even foreigners thus acquire a right to inherit. Those cast out of the Wedding receive another chance, and God pours out on us His Spirit that we might overcome and live. And so it ends with a universal blessing:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. (Rev 22:21)

Good news?! Does it get any better?
Ezekiel and John are both talking about the water of life... ...not the fire of life...

The lake of fire does not give life, but takes it, and forever--for God Himself is that consuming fire, and it is He who has given the life, and it is He who will take it back, and forever.

And, no, brother, most who have ever met the Lord actually hate Him, because He tells them the truth--even the multitude He fed supernaturally, and wanted to make Him king by force, even they ceased following Him when He told them the truth, about Himself, and about what they must do.

Your answer did not reconcile the scriptures I cited, with your doctrine.

Truly, it would not be practical for me to cite every scripture that contradicts what you believe, and affirms what I've been telling you; no, brother, but the pattern that develops is so obvious, that I can only suggest that you try it yourself.

Brother, if what you're saying is true, then the following doesn't make any sense, regardless of how translated:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." --Matthew 10:28

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with what you are saying.
 
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FineLinen

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Ezekiel and John are both talking about the water of life... ...not the fire of life...

The lake of fire does not give life, but takes it, and forever--for God Himself is that consuming fire, and it is He who has given the life, and it is He who will take it back, and forever.

The Lake of God has two defining characteristics, theion & theioo both rooted soundly in Theos.

The water of zao life is a drink with no comparison. The Lake of Theos, & our God the consuming Fire, both cause radical change for every individual who enters into Him.
 
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