Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
....
So that everyone will be salted with fire, all will be brought to a knowledge of the truth and fall to their knees crying 'Abba, father!' The entirety of groaning creation restored to its absolute perfection.
Please show me one verse, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus Himself, not a prophet or a disciple, states unequivocally that everyone, righteous and unrighteous, alike will be saved even after death.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.


 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
“Who could have peace in the Christian hope while overwhelmed with the consciousness that many of those dearest to us are even right now shrieking hopelessly for watery relief from fiery torments? If any can be happy under such a burden of woe, are they hardened to insensibility; or do they really take their creed seriously?

Do believers in eternal hell torment really believe it, in their careless unconcern for the unsaved, or do they just give formal and thoughtless assent to their creeds. A sincere contemplation of such an infinite spectacle of woe as they present about hell is enough to unseat the reason of every believer of it if it weighs on his mind as it should if true. It would be appalling to know the number of all those who thought they had committed ‘the unpardonable sin,’ another erroneous tradition, and that they were hopelessly hell-bound because of it, and as a result became maniacs and suicides.

Yet in utter disregard of the frightful results of their hideous pagan ideas, the eternal hell torment evangelists would like to unchristianize those of us who dare to question their views by turning the searchlight of truth on their errors.

After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go?

Not back to hell, for it then will be no more. Not back into death, for ‘there shall be no more death.’ Only one destiny will be possible for them, and that is the one declared in Is. 26:9, and that is correction through judgment.” -J.W. Williams-
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
But that's exactly what you are accusing God of, with a shrug.
As if to say, He's God, who can stop him? (thus making him the worst tyrant in all of human history) And something I imagine he doesn't appreciate.

The bottom line.
I would rather be a Restorationist and be wrong, than a Damnationist and be right.

Dear Saint: In the final analysis each of us must stand before Him (if we can) and hear Abba say...

You have spoken what is true of Me.

OR

You have NOT spoken that which is true of Me.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dear Saint: In the final analysis each of us must stand before Him (if we can) and hear Abba say...

You have spoken what is true of Me.

OR

You have NOT spoken that which is true of Me.
We will ALL be salted with fire. --- Burn, baby burn. - \o/

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We will ALL be salted with fire. --- Burn, baby burn. - \o/
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire
.
Do you even know what "salted with fire" means. Leviticus 2:12-13. Which excludes the unclean.
My Bible has 31,172 verses evidently the UR Bible only has 2-3. Still not one single verse God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, not a prophet or disciple speaking, which states unequivocally that unrepentant sinners will be saved after death.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
 
Upvote 0

Religiot

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2020
1,046
384
Private
✟29,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You appear to consider these articles of faith to be inconsistent with universal salvation.

But what if all people come to faith? God saving only a remnant by water is merely a shadow of His plan to save all by fire.

So that everyone will be salted with fire, all will be brought to a knowledge of the truth and fall to their knees crying 'Abba, father!' The entirety of groaning creation restored to its absolute perfection.

Now isn't that the glorious order Jesus came to fulfil?
I will listen to what you have to say, brother, but I must first start by asking you to reconcile the following statements of our Lord, with the doctrine you are saying is His. --I cannot reconcile these statements with that doctrine, but I'm willing to listen to someone else try. (I'm just a man.)

Thanks in advance.

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last." --Luke 13:23-30

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." --Matthew 7:13-14

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." --Matthew 20:16

"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." --Matthew 22:1-14
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
My Bible has 31,172 verses evidently the UR Bible only has 2-3. Still not one single verse God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, not a prophet or disciple speaking, which states unequivocally that unrepentant sinners will be saved after death.

Consider the "Studebaker Forest." It is a tract of land near South Bend, Indiana. Like so:

Stude-PG-1963-courtesy-stude100.com_.jpg


You could inspect each tree and never see the name. It must, like the Nazca geoglyphs, be seen from Above.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Consider the "Studebaker Forest." It is a tract of land near South Bend, Indiana. Like so:
You could inspect each tree and never see the name. It must, like the Nazca geoglyphs, be seen from Above.
Mildly interesting but irrelevant. And you don't even know why. Not only can you not show me even one scripture where God or Jesus unequivocally states that unrepentant sinners will be saved after death you can't show me any scripture which states that in order for me to understand the Bible that I'm supposed to have some kind of overview where if something is not clearly stated in scripture I'm supposed to figure it out by jamming disparate verses together to get the big picture.
I wonder why none of the NT writers stated nor hinted any such nonsense.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God...

In other words, from Above. Anyway, I was only offering an analogy. If I do provide verses, your response will likely be:

1. Nonsense!

2. Rubbish!

3. Irrelevant!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In other words, from Above. Anyway, I was only offering an analogy. If I do provide verses, your response will likely be:
1. Nonsense!
2. Rubbish!
3. Irrelevant!
That is my response when it is nonsense, rubbish a/o irrelevant.
I'm still waiting for one verse of scripture, 2 or more would be better, where God or Jesus, themselves, not an OT prophet or NT disciple, which states unequivocally that unrepentant sinners will be saved after death.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I will listen to what you have to say, brother, but I must first start by asking you to reconcile the following statements of our Lord, with the doctrine you are saying is His. --I cannot reconcile these statements with that doctrine, but I'm willing to listen to someone else try. (I'm just a man.)

Thanks in advance.

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last." --Luke 13:23-30

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." --Matthew 7:13-14

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." --Matthew 20:16

"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." --Matthew 22:1-14

Are you suggesting the words of the Master of Reconciliation are not in union with the rest of Scripture?

The Lord Jesus Christ loses nothing, not remnant fish & bread and not the lost remnants of the great schism of sin. Perhaps St. Paul failed to grasp what the Master was declaring?

The fact is the way of destruction is vast, and without an intervention from the Lord leads to apollumi.

My question to you, is anything to hard for our Lord? Can He take ashes and turn them into His purposes of life? Can He take a few fish and feed thousands with leftovers at the consummation? Can He raise the dead?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
FineLinen said:
Are you suggesting the words of the Master of Reconciliation are not in union with the rest of Scripture?
The Lord Jesus Christ loses nothing, not remnant fish & bread and not the lost remnants of the great schism of sin. Perhaps St. Paul failed to grasp what the Master was declaring?
Perhaps?
Bread crumbs and leftover fish are not sentient beings, they are inanimate they cannot choose to do or be anything. People on the other hand are sentient beings with minds and consciences who can choose to do/not do, go/not go, be/not be etc.
God gives people the choice, to serve Him or not, but God never says, "No matter what you choose, in this world, in the end I will make you serve me."

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
1 Kings 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Religiot

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2020
1,046
384
Private
✟29,006.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Are you suggesting the words of the Master of Reconciliation are not in union with the rest of Scripture?

The Lord Jesus Christ loses nothing, not remnant fish & bread and not the lost remnants of the great schism of sin. Perhaps St. Paul failed to grasp what the Master was declaring?

The fact is the way of destruction is vast, and without an intervention from the Lord leads to apollumi.

My question to you, is anything to hard for our Lord? Can He take ashes and turn them into His purposes of life? Can He take a few fish and feed thousands with leftovers at the consummation? Can He raise the dead?
Brother, I don't think you've understood my concern.

I know that God can do anything, and has done so, by creating the world, and everything in it, out of nothing!

Brother, I'm not questioning the ability of our Lord.

I'm simply questioning a doctrine that I cannot reconcile with what our Lord has already said.

I'm open to learning, brother, but any learning that I take part in must be in harmony with what the Lord already says.

Brother, you must know, that there are ultimately two kinds of people in the world: those who are born of God's word, and those who are born of Satan's lie.

These two seeds are scattered in the world, but only one of these will sprout into something that cannot burn.

Cain was of the seed of Satan, which took root in his heart, which root is the desire to disobey God, which he demonstrated by sacrificing according to his own will, instead of trading with his brother--so that he could sacrifice according to the will of God.

Furthermore, instead of reconciling his own will, to submit to God's will, he chose, rather, to kill his brother, instead of trading with him: this desire against reconciliation is what led to his horrible rebellion against what God had already said, resulting in the fruit of murder, and the first man to follow death.

The Doctrine of Christ is the touchstone for all doctrines, to see what they are, if they are true, then we will find their root in what our Lord has already said; if not, then they cannot be added.

Brother, just show me where this doctrine originates, and let's see if it is in harmony with what the Lord has already said: if the differences between this doctrine, and the Doctrine of Christ, are irreconcilable, then I must choose the Doctrine of Christ; this goes for any doctrine, even if it means I have to die for it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Brother, I don't think you've understood my concern.

I know that God can do anything, and has done so, by creating the world, and everything in it, out of nothing!

Brother, I'm not questioning the ability of our Lord.

I'm simply questioning a doctrine that I cannot reconcile with what our Lord has already said.

I'm open to learning, brother, but any learning that I take part in must be in harmony with what the Lord already says.

Brother, you must know, that there are ultimately two kinds of people in the world: those who are born of God's word, and those who are born of Satan's lie.

These two seeds are scattered in the world, but only one of these will sprout into something that cannot burn.

Cain was of the seed of Satan, which took root in his heart, which root is the desire to disobey God, which he demonstrated by sacrificing according to his own will, instead of trading with his brother--so that he could sacrifice according to the will of God.

Furthermore, instead of reconciling his own will, to submit to God's will, he chose, rather, to kill his brother, instead of trading with him: this desire against reconciliation is what led to his horrible rebellion against what God had already said, resulting in the fruit of murder, and the first man to follow death.

The Doctrine of Christ is the touchstone for all doctrines, to see what they are, if they are true, then we will find their root in what our Lord has already said; if not, then they cannot be added.

Brother, just show me where this doctrine originates, and let's see if it is in harmony with what the Lord has already said: if the differences between this doctrine, and the Doctrine of Christ, are irreconcilable, then I must choose the Doctrine of Christ; this goes for any doctrine, even if it means I have to die for it.

The revelation of the Restitution of the all originates in the Heart of all hearts & has been expressed in and thru the prophets & sages of our God from the earliest days.

If you will take a little time to examine some of the remarkable saints of past days, you will find amazing trophies of the Master, who in alignment with His Heart cherish the final outcome consummated in Him, the Source, Guide & Goal of the all.

If you are unable to see the Beginning being the Ending, you will be required to head to your nearest closet and speak with the Author who alone can lead all of us to Higher Ground. We wish you well on your journey!

Revelation 5:13 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Every knee, every tongue in every dimension IN/EN worship!

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
FineLinen said:
...Every knee, every tongue in every dimension IN/EN worship!
@FineLinen This is a patently false misrepresentation of scripture.
Exomolegeo occurs eleven times in the NT including Philippians 2:11, it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back).”
Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”


 
Upvote 0

Shrewd Manager

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2019
4,167
4,081
Melbourne
✟364,409.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I will listen to what you have to say, brother, but I must first start by asking you to reconcile the following statements of our Lord, with the doctrine you are saying is His. --I cannot reconcile these statements with that doctrine, but I'm willing to listen to someone else try. (I'm just a man.)

Thanks you for keeping an open mind, and I'm pleased we have our humanity and love of the truth in common.

"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last." --Luke 13:23-30

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." --Matthew 7:13-14

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen." --Matthew 20:16

"And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen." --Matthew 22:1-14

These are warnings directed (at least principally) at believers. The Kingdom of Heaven of course has certain entry conditions, as Revelation teaches that the name must be written in the Lamb's Book of Life. But the pearly gates stand ever-open, and the lake of fire outside is fed by the issue from the throne, it is the purifying theion of Lamb's blood in which robes are washed, the flesh cleansed of the disease of sin, where overcoming of blindness and sin takes place, the dead restored to life by fiery baptismal immersion in the life of Christ, the Great Physician's ultimate remedy against sin, death and hell.

I imagine it's no fun to saunter up to judgment with a conviction that you've 'made the cut for Team Jesus', only to be told you've been barking up the wrong tree, as it were. 'Depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Humiliating and terrifying when it suddenly hits home that your ship's been scuttled and all hope is to be abandoned. You leave, head bowed and with a wooden gait, hearing the rejoicing and festivities inside, left with only a dread and certainty of eternal torment and doom ahead. Wailing and gnashing - why not me, unfair!

Few are chosen to go straight in. Most have sins, strongholds that we're yet to overcome. The flesh wars against the spirit, our frame is but dust after all. Stamped 'Purification required', and sent out to overcome, but with the ongoing encouragement of the Spirit and the Bride, Come on you can do it, wash your robes and come take the free gift of living water (Rev 22).

Look at Ezekiel's Millennial Temple vision especially Ez 47:1-10. The stream issues from the temple and swells into a mighty river, cascading into the Dead Sea and bringing everything to life.

It shall be that fishermen will stand by it from En Gedi to En Eglaim; they will be places for spreading their nets. Their fish will be of the same kinds as the fish of the Great Sea, exceedingly many. (47:10)

Fishers of men, the job description doesn't change.

It is the vision that John shares in Rev 21-22, but with fire not water:

In the middle of its street and of the river, on this side and on that side, was a tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2)

The Lake of Fire gives life, the nations repent and come for healing. Even foreigners thus acquire a right to inherit. Those cast out of the Wedding receive another chance, and God pours out on us His Spirit that we might overcome and live. And so it ends with a universal blessing:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. (Rev 22:21)

Good news?! Does it get any better?
 
Upvote 0

Contenders Edge

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 13, 2019
2,615
370
43
Hayfork
✟167,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But that's exactly what you are accusing God of, with a shrug.
As if to say, He's God, who can stop him? (thus making him the worst tyrant in all of human history) And something I imagine he doesn't appreciate.

The bottom line.
I would rather be a Restorationist and be wrong, than a Damnationist and be right.


I'm not accusing God of that, but you are attempting to make God out to be like a man because of your reliance on a flawed understanding of justice. His justice standard is much higher than ours and therefore, we cannot call Him unfair for sentencing the unrepentant to eternal damnation which in all actuality, they are making that choice for themselves when they refuse to receive the forgiveness offered them.

If they refuse to repent in life, they never will in death under any given circumstance and what wickedness they held to in life, they will carry with them in death. God cannot allow a place for that in His Kingdom.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Contenders Edge

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 13, 2019
2,615
370
43
Hayfork
✟167,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Dear Contender: The entire working of the High & Lofty One flows from His essence. His essence IS Love, Light, Spirit, At-one-ment from which flows His perfect justice bathed in mercy!

Justice =

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

"Unto You oh Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."


But not everyone receives that love, light, and Spirit. Many reject it and refuse to be persuaded otherwise. Therefore, God grants them their wish and they are sent to a place that is away from His presence and full of torment.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.