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Are there spiritual fathers in our time?

Discussion in 'The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox' started by Hekler, Jan 12, 2022.

  1. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    When you say 'levels of theosis' I don't understand you apart from having more knowledge imparted. Sinless is sinless. Or is that not how you interpret it?

    Acts 20 where Paul says specifically: “And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there.

    He was being warned not to go but he says 'compelled' and anyone who has dealings with the devil knows that it is he who compels whereas the Holy Spirit leads with a small voice.
     
  2. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Father I am not here to teach you what your tradition of theosis involves, especially when I am not Orthodox (but agree with it) so I will leave it there.
     
  3. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    you should not teach it because you don’t know it.

    plus the issue was whether or not it’s a requirement to become a bishop. and it’s not.
     
  4. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    I know it because I have been through the three steps not just been taught it. Not in theosis at present though God will grant it when He wills.

    As I said, it is not required nor has been for some time. Your understanding of blameless is the point of contention.
     
  5. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no, theosis is impossible outside of the Orthodox Church, so no you haven’t been through the three steps.

    and this began because you said it was required.
     
  6. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Yes I know that Orthodoxy teaches it is impossible, but God can do what He wants as part of His economy in desperate times. I was unable to be in any church actually and sick, stripped of everything in life, lost four children, severely traumatized in childhood and much more. As Orthodoxy is bereft of many who have known theosis, they are not in a position to judge anyway. I knew you would not believe me but I know what it is to walk without sin.

    It is required as Paul said, but is not carried out.
     
  7. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    By the way, I did attempt to join a local Orthodox church but was shunned and no, I did not mention theosis. Orthodoxy is in a very bad way.
     
  8. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    It is sad and wrong that you were shunned. Orthodoxy always has it’s challenges; some parishes do well and others do not.
     
  9. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    I agree with God acting in the life of whomever He wants, but that isn’t theosis.

    and I have not read anything yet which says it’s a requirement. “should be” isn’t the same as “required to be.”
     
  10. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    If Paul says it should be then it is required and it is the fault of the church for not carrying it out - long term.

    Father you know little about my life so you cannot judge unless you do. You cannot deny that Orthodoxy is in a very bad way.
     
  11. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    no, if St Paul says it should be, then it should be. that’s not the same as requiring it.

    and I don’t know what Orthodoxy being in a bad way means or has to do with anything. be that as it may, I do know Orthodoxy teaches theosis is impossible outside of the Church, and you aren’t in the Church.
     
  12. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Forgive me, but that does not make any sense to me apart from the dispute about what blameless entails.

    The church is the hospital for souls so they can be healed from the effects of the fall, and broken souls are not going to be helped much if the clergy can only say 'l am in need of healing myself'. Its like taking your car to a garage and the mechanic saying 'yeah l think l know what it is but just let me complete my training then l can fix it'. After all, a man is not glorified because he chose not to co operate so why should he have such a responsible position?

    I say Orthodoxy is in a bad way if God has to resort to complete theosis in an 'outsider' l am in the church, God has put me in it, just my local priest barred me entrance on an earthly level. It was not my fault and God is not holding it against me as He is just and holy.
     
  13. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    well, no offense, but that doesn’t matter. St Paul doesn’t say it’s a requirement. Church history from the beginning also shows that.

    as for your second point, while I am sorry you had a bad experience and hope you can find a better priest and parish, but that’s not how theosis or the Church work. you are correct that God would not hold something like that against you though. and lastly, while that does say that you had a bad experience, that doesn’t mean that Orthodoxy’s in a bad way.
     
  14. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    I'm not saying it is in a bad way just because of me. I am aware of how things are as l am a member of a few internet groups. I will say no more.

    We are at the end of the road over the other point. You can't lead if you are not qualified for the job and illumination at least and preferably theosis are the qualifications.
     
  15. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    if you base your knowledge of Orthodoxy on internet groups, you’re in the wrong area.

    and the issue was that theosis was the requirement, not illumination.
     
  16. Nathaniel Red

    Nathaniel Red New Member

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    Well I think it kind of is, just in a spiritual way, not in a dogmatic or canonically expressed way.

    Oh I didn't notice the word "Beget", I guess thats reserved only for God begetting the son? Is there a reason why it can't be used more broadly, since I thought God being begotten wasn't defined, its just a mystery?
     
  17. Nathaniel Red

    Nathaniel Red New Member

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    God is love itself. Heaven is relationship with God. There are different levels of relationship with God, and thus different levels of heaven. That is theosis. For even the love of a mother is God himself. The highest level is to become god. We do not need to reach anywhere near that high of theosis in order to be a bishop, though you should be loving.

    Compel doesn't mean force. Also the context clearly shows it was the holy spirit. (Acts 23:11) The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, “Take courage! As you have testified about me in Jerusalem, so you must also testify in Rome.” Do you really think the devil would've lead Paul to testify about christ? Thats blasphemy.
     
  18. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    I have gained my knowledge through reading much material over two years, attending divine liturgy, and experiencing the tradition which was handed down to the church.

    I knew that it was not just a matter of doing some reading, and that the Orthodox mindset must be developed. I thought that I had achieved that somewhat when I became able to answer criticisms towards Orthodoxy even amongst Protestant theologians who had spent many years studying Orthodoxy, but here is the thing, they never converted, and I felt that had they really understood, they would have converted like Juroslav Pelikan who I am enjoying reading presently.

    Paul says husbands should love their wives. It means that it is God's will, same as theosis in bishops.
     
  19. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    Scripture speaks about Paul's spiritual children.
     
  20. bmjackson

    bmjackson Newbie Supporter

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    You say nothing about sinlessness.

    On Paul, I believe that God said that to give Paul comfort, as Paul was obviously troubled and not at peace, the result of not following the Spirit and was telling him that if fact he would not die.
     
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